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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Advice on inheritance disputes

999 replies

Ilovechinese · 20/01/2020 14:02

Hi I'm just wondering if anyone on here has been to court to contest a will and if so how long did it take to get to court and what the process is. I'm going through this at the minute (well not got to court yet) but have a caveat in place to stop probate.

OP posts:
DeRigueurMortis · 24/01/2020 15:39

No it doesn't say that at all.

It makes clear that costs incurred by you holding up probate by refusing to release the caveat (as you have done) can be claimed against you.

LakieLady · 24/01/2020 15:39

They may be taking their time and hoping you run out of money, OP.

If I was confident of my position, and knew you didn't have unlimited funds, I'd sit it out until your legal bills had eaten all your funds and you had to jack it in.

WobblyAllOver · 24/01/2020 15:41

I too would be waiting for you to come with your 'proof' so I could argue against it.

User56781234 · 24/01/2020 15:45

And how long would it take them to collect evidence if its such an open and shut case as everyone is saying?

Who is this everyone?

Upstartcrones · 24/01/2020 15:47

Your DB has probably been advised that the burden of proof is on you so to wait until your evidence is submitted. Its on you to prove his 'guilt' not for him to prove his innocence. That is how it works in court.

By not doing anything he's actually playing it really smart. You have to show your evidence and at the same time burn through your money. Then he can swoop in and collect costs. He's playing the long game and you are completely misreading the situation.

beverlymarsh · 24/01/2020 15:52

“You say he is probably collecting evidence to prove it is valid but he told me they were "ready" to go to court a whole year ago. If they were so ready why have I still not heard about it?”

Heard about what? From the court? He doesn’t need to issue a claim....

DeRigueurMortis · 24/01/2020 15:52

you are completely misreading the situation

Absolutely this.

steff13 · 24/01/2020 15:55

By not doing anything he's actually playing it really smart. You have to show your evidence and at the same time burn through your money. Then he can swoop in and collect costs. He's playing the long game and you are completely misreading the situation.

I think this is exactly what's happening.

rattusrattus20 · 24/01/2020 16:05

The long and short of this thread, OP, is as follows:

(1) It sounds very much like one or both of your DM & DB have done a terrible thing here, they've cheated you, unceremoniously shredded any number of the [unwritten] maternal & fraternal contracts that good family relations depend on. You're right to be upset.

but

(2) Your chances of making any money from pursuing this with lawyers are exceptionally slim. Your chances of losing money, by which I mean real, life-enhancing amounts of money, are excellent.

sad but true.

cornstarch · 24/01/2020 16:05

OP you need a barrister's opinion if you want to know whether you've got any chance for this to go anywhere.

Barbie222 · 24/01/2020 16:29

OP, in the nicest way, you really don't know what you are doing here and are applying playground mentality to it all. Get advice, and be prepared to listen even if it's not what you want to hear.

Ilovechinese · 24/01/2020 16:38

@rattusrattus20 yep that is exactly it and @cornstarch how do I go about getting that? I've tried Ringing somewhere for direct access barristers but they said the only wills and probate one they have is one you have to go through a solicitor to get

OP posts:
Herringbone31 · 24/01/2020 16:51

Do you realise you are liable. At this stage. For costs?!?

Schuyler · 24/01/2020 17:28

@Ilovechinese
Do you have medical evidence she was experiencing hallucinations? Even if you do, mental capacity is time and decision specific. Someone can have capacity to make decisions about one decision on a Monday morning but lack capacity about another decision by Monday evening.

Ilovechinese · 24/01/2020 17:29

Where the validity of a will is in dispute, the potential claimant can be quick to enter a caveat at the probate registry. This will prevent a grant of probate being issued and the estate being administered and distributed to the beneficiaries under the will. There is no threshold to overcome to be able to put in such a caveat. A short form and a fee of £20 is all that is required. The caveat can be renewed every six months. So where does this leave the beneficiaries who believe that the will is valid? Particularly where the person who entered the caveat (the ‘caveator’) produces no evidence to shed serious doubt on the validity of the will?

This situation occurs commonly. People can be quick to enter a caveat but unwilling or unable to spend the time and money in legal fees to adduce evidence – to put their money where their mouth is. The first step for the beneficiaries is to warn the caveat. This process is easy for the caveator to overcome by sending another short form to the probate registry, called an appearance. Once this appearance is entered the caveat becomes permanent and can only be removed by court order. The estate becomes deadlocked until it is either removed by consent amongst the parties or an order is made as a result of probate proceedings determining the validity of the will.

This situation arose in the recent case of Elliot v Simmonds and another [2016] EWHC 732 (Ch). The beneficiaries were forced to issue probate proceedings in the High Court to prove the validity of the Will. The caveator, Ms Simmonds, had made various allegations against the will but had produced no evidence. Ms Simmonds did not enter a full defence to the probate claim, which would have required her to produce arguments against the validity of the will; instead she entered what is known as a ‘passive defence’. This passive defence is available in probate proceedings only and allowed her to insist on the will being proved by the beneficiaries to the satisfaction of the court at trial. She could effectively do nothing and put the beneficiaries through the ordeal and cost of taking the matter to court.

In the event, the judge found that the will was valid. The deadlock was finally broken; three years and tens of thousands of pounds later. Thankfully for the beneficiaries the story did not end there.

The beneficiaries made an application for costs against Ms Simmonds. They said that she had acted unreasonably in opposing the will. The court agreed and ordered her to pay costs, to be assessed if not agreed with an initial payment of £65,000.

The decision will bring some comfort to the beneficiaries of estates in a permanent caveat deadlock, where the caveator refuses to acknowledge weaknesses in their claim and to adduce evidence to support their opposition. However, one cannot help but feel sorry for the beneficiary in the Elliot case who had to take matters all the way to the High Court on validity and costs in order to break through and administer what turned out to be a perfectly valid will.

OP posts:
Ilovechinese · 24/01/2020 17:30

I just found that, so whilst I may have to pay costs in the end if it is found to be valid, he will have to first find that amount of money to take me court and I dont think he has that kind of money

OP posts:
DeRigueurMortis · 24/01/2020 17:36

If the will is found valid he will have the money to take you to court to claim back costs you incurred to the estate.

He doesn't have to do this before he gets the money from the will - he can do it after.

OP your head is utterly in the sand wrt how precarious a situation you are in.

Ilovechinese · 24/01/2020 17:38

Well even so he will not get as much from the estate if he has to pay a the court costs out if it then

OP posts:
WobblyAllOver · 24/01/2020 17:41

Well even so he will not get as much from the estate if he has to pay a the court costs out if it then

You aren't getting it. He 'could' be awarded costs from you. Your bit of the will might end up being nothing as well as you still owing money to him.

MordredsOrrery · 24/01/2020 17:43

After that update, I've gone for feeling sympathy for your behaviour to feeling very sorry for your half brother.

You believe he is up to no good because your mother chose not to leave the estate equally between you all. And you're willing, on the basis of no evidence, to try and cast aspersions on him with the added bonus of attempting to bankrupt both him and yourself because...why? Revenge? Greed? Thwarted hope?

Please OP, step back. Think seriously about what you can afford to lose, and not just in cash: you're putting your reputation and your mental/emotional wellbeing on the line here, too. Is it really worth it?

florascotia2 · 24/01/2020 17:43

Oh for heaven's sake, OP. That court case illustrates the sort of danger you are in.

Look: you've been advised by experts here to compromise, through mediation. That seems your best bet.

You've been told that already you are liable for costs so far. Get on to your solicitor and ask how much you owe, for yourself and for the court and your brother. They have to tell you. It might be quite a lot.

Then have a big think. Just stop , and - I do know and understand how hurt and angry you are - let things go.

If, after all that, you want to proceed, it's not difficult to find the sort of "Public Access" barrister you are after, though I would NOT advise you to waste any more money on this:
www.barcouncil.org.uk/bar-council-services/for-the-public.html

Upstartcrones · 24/01/2020 17:48

I must admit I've lost sympathy for you now OP. I think your principle argument is actually masking vindictiveness. If we can see it here I suspect a judge will very quickly see it as a vexatious lawsuit. You are on a hiding to nothing.

beverlymarsh · 24/01/2020 17:50

So are you actually more interested in providing for your kids or doing your brother out of what he’s inherited? Based on your last post, it seems the latter. “Vexatious litigation” is a term which springs to mind here.

beverlymarsh · 24/01/2020 17:51

Cross post with @Upstartcrones there...

Upstartcrones · 24/01/2020 17:52

beverlymarsh jinx Grin