111 failed to diagnose

[Shedidnt]

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/calls-nhs-111-helpline-probe-21216411?fbclid=IwAR3SMrfs8ptX0YbrlJozTL_PyeRzd2f6ijkqZsg_7P3EFkEi3F3Psbg2aAg

Am I correct in thinking that the warnings we are all given about not going to A&E needlessly is the cause of these deaths, and we're dealing with Joe Soaps and their questionnaires on 111 rather than trusting our own judgment?

It's obviously not that brilliant if 5 children died.

1 death is too many for the parents involved. 5?

OP, have you looked at the number of people who died in hospital through improper car? Or would you just like to completely ignore that fact and pretend that hospitals are so incredibly flawless?

@Shedidnt

I would certainly ask questions and require a thorough investigation but I wouldn’t be raging on the internet about how the whole service is terrible and they’re all crap because that simply isn’t true.

You don’t appear to be able to see or consider the bigger picture. I can. That’s why our opinions differ. I have great sympathy for those individual families and clearly something went wrong somewhere in those individual cases. But it doesn’t mean the service is no good or unfit. If 111 didn’t exist the entire frontline acute service would collapse. Could it be improved? Absolutely. Everything could.

But, in the words of a Taylor Swift, you need to calm down.

OP, have you looked at the number of people who died in hospital through improper car? Or would you just like to completely ignore that fact and pretend that hospitals are so incredibly flawless?

This thread is about 111.

This 111 nonsense does not exist in any other country that I'm aware of - happy to be corrected.

Doesn't exist in Finland at least. At least in my area the system is that you call the local emergency department (my local one is combined emergency and out of hours so takes less serious things as well as emergencies) and an actual nurse answers the phone and triages you over the phone and gives you a time to come in (which means less time spent waiting in A&E) or tells you come in straight away/call for an ambulance.

I feel more confident about having a nurse decide whether my symptoms, as I describe them, warrant urgent examination or not, rather than someone who isn't medically trained. But population is much smaller - not sure if it could work in the UK

Most doctors and ambulance crews are a little bit disbelieving when you rock up and there's not a bother on you - but 111 matrix sent an ambulance.

I think it's a useless and dangerous service.

Ahhh OP, I see your thinking now. You only want me to see your view (which is flawed tbh) and if I don’t, then you’ll just shut me down.

But no, this thread isn’t just about 111, because as evidence that 111 really isn’t that bad, I am using the amount of deaths that occur in hospitals. Surely any logical person would back their fact/opinion up with some support, exactly what I am doing?

111 is to an extent a brilliant service, and I have no doubt it has significantly reduced the pressure on A&E; however, it does have its flaws, but this does not mean it shouldn’t be around because it has major benefits. This is very similar to a hospital, which also has flaws and at times cause unnecessary deaths, but in no way should be shut down.

Shedidn't I don't blame 111 for these deaths.

The Tories are destroying the NHS. But it's what people want, or so it seems.

111 is renowned for sending unnecessary ambulances out.

If things went back to 999 or a GP, lives could be saved (5 children) and we wouldn't be getting shipped off in an ambulance because we have chest pain.

You know what I did when I called 111 and they offered to send an ambulance, I simply used my common sense and said “I don’t think that’s necessary, I can get my husband to drive”

But please, do carry on with you utterly flawed vision of removing 111; I won’t argue with you, because you’re an actual brick wall.

Why didn't you just got to A&E? Popsicle

shedid in your example though you thought you were dying. What were you going to say to 111 that you couldn't to 999?

Obviously if my child died as a result of 111 I would be gunning for their closure. That doesn't necessarily mean that I would be right.

People are misdiagnosed in A&E frequently. People are sent home when they probably shouldn't be. People are misdiagnosed by GPs, symptoms are missed. No health service is infallible. Ideally no one would ever be misdiagnosed, but that doesn't happen.

You keep repeating 5 people have died, but lots of posters clearly disagree that this is a reason for it to close. We understand 5 people have died. You are just arguing the same point.

How many people do You think have died as a result of misdiagnosis from GPs/A&E? Probably more than 5. How many people do You think went to A&E as a result of 111 when they might not have done? Probably more than 5.

I am not saying that these deaths shouldn't be investigated, and changes made. Im not saying the 5 deaths is acceptable in anyway. Its not. But 5 deaths as a statistic on it's own isnt really helpful, and doesn't automatically mean closure.

You cannot possibly just close 111, our hospitals would be completely overwhelmed. People who needed to phone 111 and go to an Oohs GP would end up waiting 20hrs in A&E. People who needed to be seen in a&e would end up waiting 20hrs in A&E and die. Realistically if you know your going to wait 15 hrs in A&E, you don't want to go. People won't go when they should etc.

You havent even acknowledged the reason 111 exists in the first place. You are just repeating the same thing over and over again, and won't accept that posters disagree with you.

I think there’s a difference between a missed or incorrect diagnosis in person compared to one over the telephone. It’s much harder to unpick negligence and human error.

Medicine isn’t an exact science but when you know more could have been done it shouldn’t be ignored.

I find it hard to imagine reconciling my feelings that a computer programme played an instrumental part in my child’s death when human interaction could have potentially saved them and not speaking up about it.

Being grateful for the NHS and supporting its services doesn’t mean unquestionably accepting everything that happens under its name. If there is something that can and should be done better it should be highlighted and discussed.

Finances are a red herring, we can afford HCP’s we just haven’t got them. There are approximately 6000 GP vacancies according to a the independent and a quick google. Imagine if 111 had access to the services of even half that number.

111 is a useless service and there is something seriously fucked about the diagnostic seive they use. I once had an episode of malignant hypertension and clearly needed an OOH doctor at the very least. Leaving aside the screamingly annoying need to answer utterly irrelevant questions, it took half a night, half a day and six phone calls to finally get the appointment I needed, only to get there and find they had been told I was coming in with a UTI (wtf?). But as others have said, it's clearly a bandaid placed optimistically over the weeping sore of acute-on-chronic underfunding. I don't know how people without anyone with medical knowledge in their family cope tbh, and it's only going to get worse.

OP, because I live a 10 minute drive from the hospital so logic said to get my husband who was sitting next to me at the time to drive me rather than wait for an ambulance which would’ve been longer

If we didn't have 111 there'd be queues out of the door at A&E and people would die or be permanently disabled waiting to be triaged, many more than five. I agree with PPs who say it should be answered by nurses and not untrained people.

To people who are saying that in order to get an OOH appointment with a GP, it might be worth checking with your own surgery if they offer this service directly, I know that if I ring my own surgery's number after 6 it will divert to to the OOH's GP's and I'm able to get an appointment that way, without going through 111. Obviously you can go through 111, but it's quicker to go via your own surgery. I'm not sure if this is just a thing where I live. It's called 'GP care'.

YANBU. Personally, I have found 111 to be very good. However, if I want to take my sick child to A and E, I will do so and I certainly won't be scared off by any complaints about possibly wasting anyone's time.

I've used A and E only on about 3 occasions, and on one of those occasions I was sent there by 111. All the times I think it was the right thing to do.

People should not be scared off using the hospital services.

FrancisCrawford I am so sorry to read about your mum. And glad you did the right thing.

It cannot just be for booking oogp appointments as if it were they'd all be full very quickly and all that happened when you called looking for advice would be told that a oogp could see you in two days time. Resources have to be allocated appropriately otherwise they get waisted. All systems will make mistakes, 999 has a very similar algorithm to 111 and in similar fashion to 111 can tell you you'll get a ring back in x hours, or that the algorithm says you don't warrant any further assessment at all at this time.

Every service makes

You needed an ambulance - not an OOH GP.

No , I needed ADVICE on whether I needed to go to A&E or whether it could have been dealt with by an out of hours GP visiting my home and checking my leg out (i.e. seen and told to rest).

Advice on a non emergency issue OP. My initial injury was NOT an emergency which is what 999 and an ambulance is for. I just had pulled my leg muscles badly but didn't release how badly.

The discovery of my muscle damage and diabetes issue would have been picked up by a OOH GP. Then I would have gone to A&E.

111 gave me the ADVICE I needed at the time and sent for an ambulance for me.

Not sure why you have failed to grasp what myself and others have said about 111 is for NON EMERGENCY advice.

I agree with PPs who say it should be answered by nurses and not untrained people.
Where are these nurses? There aren't enough to fill the current vacancies without expecting hundreds to be available to answer phone calls that 9/10 can be handled by the people currently employed to do it and who have over to HCPs to do call backs where needed.

Also, make use of your local walk in centre where you can. Receptionists are trained and give appropriate advice (although obviously they're not medically trained) but they should - and are able to - prioritise patients based on need, so for example a very sick baby would be put to the front of the queue over adults with minor symptoms.

The system isn't perfect though I'll admit.

I thin they need to be constantly regularly evaluating and improving it, based on the conditions being missed.

We only ever use 111 to get an out of hours appointment at urgent care for us or DS. I'd never ever trust them to diagnose and anyone that does is a daft as them imo. ALWAYS go to a walk-in or A&E if your gut is telling you otherwise.