111 failed to diagnose

[Shedidnt]

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/calls-nhs-111-helpline-probe-21216411?fbclid=IwAR3SMrfs8ptX0YbrlJozTL_PyeRzd2f6ijkqZsg_7P3EFkEi3F3Psbg2aAg

Am I correct in thinking that the warnings we are all given about not going to A&E needlessly is the cause of these deaths, and we're dealing with Joe Soaps and their questionnaires on 111 rather than trusting our own judgment?

I think the problem is that 111 doesn't know what it is. Is it an appointment service, a diagnostic service, a professional medical service, a referral service? What is it?

I've read so many threads on here where everyone advises to call 111. Wtf good is that going to do?

@Sexnotgender I fail to see why you didn’t go straight to A and E.

People need to use their common sense more. You know what kind of a service 111 is, use some judgement.

I fail to see why you didn’t go straight to A and E
Because it's drummed into us to use 111 instead.

This is horrific , but if you’re seriously concerned about your child why on earth would you listen to them ! You’d just go to A&E surely. They’re not there witnessing the child’s symptoms.

111 is a sticking plaster over the open wound, which is the chronic underfunding of the NHS. It's inevitable it will fail sometimes. Personally I have found 111 to be good, but I completely accept that we were lucky, it could be regional differences, we could have got a good call handler, & the fact that my DD was on my lap, audibly barking down the phone (croup) but getting demonstrably weaker certainly helped. By the time the ambulance arrived she was unconscious with broken capillaries around her eyes from the coughing.

but I am surprised you didn't ring your surgery as a first port of call with a very poorly toddler who has health conditions.

I did ring my GP, they weren’t interested as I was staying with my parents that night so not in the catchment area. The GP that eventually came out was from my parents surgery where I am no longer registered.

We called everyone basically!! The only reason I didn’t take her straight back to A&E was we’d literally been sent home from there about 15 hours previously. In hindsight I should have just taken her straight there but I was a young mum and absolutely exhausted and not thinking logically.

Just 3 or 4 days after giving birth and, since it was very relevant, having first informed 111 of that, my dd was asked at least 3 times whether there was any chance she could be pregnant.

I do fully appreciate that they’re strictly obliged to follow a script - but it does indicate mindless box-ticking by someone qualified only by being trained to follow a script.

I would never use it. I’m happy that my common sense will help me to decide whether I need to go to A&E or not.

A&E is overburdened, but (IMO) trying to convince people that going along with less than a leg hanging off is not the right way forward.

For me 111 is the pathway for an out of hours GP appt if ever necessary. I did it for my mum when she had pneumonia. You need to make your own mind up and tell them what you need. It shouldn’t be a source of diagnosis.

People should not give the service more legitimacy than it has.

If you need medical advice you should see a doctor not trust to un-trained call handlers with lists.

@puds11 because we’d just been at A&E! They sent us home with her just saying we needed to rehydrate her.

I was 21 and basically hadn’t slept for about 4 days with a sick toddler.

Would I do it differently now? Of course but I still expect 111 to at least phone back given the circumstances.

In the case of poor little Myla in the linked article - the nurse was gravely at fault diagnosing gastroenteritis over the phone. (If that’s what happened - one never knows with tabloids).

I have always found 111 to be over the top and tend to want to send an ambulance for everything. It’s a hard one as all they have to go on Is the answers you give. Healthcare is under such a huge strain it’s frightening. you’re very lucky if you still have the same regular GP doctor who knows your records and history, let alone being able to actually get a appointment that is not in a few weeks time.

I rang 111 a few years ago and did not find them helpful. Too many endless questions and not enough going into detail about the issue I had.

Maybe 111 don't like your pencil skirts ?

They wouldn't have deliberately decided to not call back though. That's a fuck up over a phone number or something. Anyway I'm glad it all turned out OK.

I agree 111 is a sticking plaster. We are taking the strain as other bits of the nhs crack under pressure. In an ideal world we'd all get seen by our GPS in a timely manner. We'd have a number for a gp on call like the old days and he'd pop over and see us out of hours.

I think some people don't realise the danger of dehydration. They think that once a child starts to drink again, they'll be fine.
The dangers are extreme sometimes. Your electrolytes get fucked up, you can have a seizure, heart attack etc. I've been on the brink of both of those and been admitted - my potassium, sodium and magnesium were dangerously low. I was 8 days on drips of potassium and magnesium before they let me home. My hands seized up and went folded back into my arms in the ambulance - I honestly was petrified. 111 had told me to see a GP the next day. All I had wrong with me really was vomiting and diarrhoea and weakness.

I just think it's an accident waiting to happen. Except that 'accident' has happened. 5 deaths should be enough for them to scrap it.

111 has been great for me as a first time mum. It’s sent us to out if hours gps rather than a&e and where I am there seems to be no other way to get to out of hours GPs. They’ve always rung back with nurses who have given me good advice

To be fair, some years back, a very experienced GP told me over the phone that I had gastroenteritis (had been vomiting for three days and had a 40 degree temperature) and left anti-emetics for my then husband to collect. Went to out of hours the next evening, turns out I had pneumonia.

We've always had great support from 111, if anything they've been a bit too keen to send out an ambulance. We've had one this week because we couldn't keep the baby's temp down or keep anything in him to help. He was very drowsy and couldn't keep him awake whilst on the phone to them. I said we would just drive but they insisted.

One- it’s a tabloid paper. Who knows if the facts are as reported. Two- whenever I’ve spoken to NHS 24 (111) they always say to call back if anything changes. They don’t say this is a diagnosis of the person they say it’s based on your answer at that point and they stress that if that changes the result may also change and to call again. Or if the line is busy you are advised to hang up and call 999 if things have worsened. So I’m not blaming the parents in these tragic conditions at all however something changed between their phone calls and their children dying so there was a point at which that instinct to get your child seen by a doctor should have kicked in surely? Or you insist you speak to a nurse rather than a call handler. You say “I am worried my child is just not right. This is not normal for her” etc.

We took ds when he was 15 months to out of hours GP. He was unwell with a high temp. He began to have a febrile convulsion (his first so I hadn’t even seen this) and the GP was worse than useless. She asked my (very upset and panicking) DH to video it on his phone. She called some one else... and in the end I ran out of the room (thankfully ooh was in our local a and e dept) and shouted for help until an A and E dr came and took over. So having a “qualified” person doesn’t always mean you will get appropriate treatment either.

I agree it’s just a sticking plaster for a failing system. It’s designed to try and hold the hordes back. Although ironically it probably just puts more pressure on A&E.
It would make more sense to have better staffed out of hours GP services (maybe including Nurse practitioners).
Unfortunately due to years of underfunding and subsequent low morale those staff simply don’t exist.
It’s hardly surprising that 111 makes fatal errors sometimes, it’s a flawed idea.

I find the Mirror quite reputable actually. I don't need the Times to pontificate. The facts are the facts.

I have to admit 111 have always erred on the side of caution and probably gone too far when not needed, ie sending ambulances out for my DS when I really just wanted an OOH appointment. I've always found them really helpful and have always rang back in the allocated window.

However, I would probably be one of those parents whereby if I didn't get a phone call back, I'd be ringing or taking to A&E to cover all bases. I think some kind of autonomy needs to be given back to the callers in this situation, so rather than being reliant on a phone call in x number of hours, they are told 'if you have any concerns or we haven't called you back, go to a&e'.

Thing is we are a nation of two sides - those who don't like to trouble the health services and think they are overreacting and don't trust their own judgement and those who use emergency services like taxis and drop in centres when conditions are perfectly treatable at home. You only have to look at some of the topics on here where people are pondering whether to go to A&E or walk in centre to know we all doubt our own judgement and I think that is exemplified when a nurse or HCA tells a parent or patient on the phone to wait.

I've used 111 numerous times, each one I finished the call being shocked at the lack of any knowledge, not just medical, a couple of the people seemed inept in every single way.

One time I called with a bad chemical burn, the boy didn't have a clue about burns at all.

For me, it's pretty much useless.