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Original poster

Ex refusing to return son

92 replies

SiempreDot · 04/01/2020 21:59

Cross posting here for traffic.

Ex came to pick up our son on friday and saw there were moving boxes. Temporarily moving to parents whilst a new house two minutes from ours is renovated.

I haven't told him our new address due to emotional abuse and stalking - this was based on legal advice from a solicitor who said there's no legal reason you have to disclose your address.

We are in an appeal hearing on a Monday where he has appealed the judge's decision which ruled against himS He has now text me to say he is refusing to bring our 3 year old son home because our son has said apparently we're moving to Brighton (we live in the north). This is totally bizarre. I believe he's trying to set me up before court on Monday to say I'm some kind of flight risk.

This is one of a long list of inflammatory things he's done before court. On Christmas Day, he refused to return him at the agreed time claiming his car had broken and then all his family had hidden their cars down a side road when I arrived.

I don't know what to do if he doesn't return him tomorrow? Can the police be involved? The court order says drop off at 5pm on Sunday.

If he does fail to to return him, I'm minded to say in court that he isn't safe to have our son because of his decision to engage in these games. Can someone advise me how to play this in court? And whether the police could do anything tomorrow?

Really out of my mind with worry.

OP posts:
FenellaVelour · 05/01/2020 11:36

In England, at least, you don't have a legal right to know where a child is staying overnight. I wish a solicitor would come and confirm this.

But courts will expect parents to tell the other where their child is staying/living, unless there’s a very good reason not to... and in the event of stalking behaviour, then they will expect this to have been reported and a non-molestation order applied for. If the courts see you withholding for no good reason (that can be evidenced), it may be that this reflects badly on you.

IdiotInDisguise · 05/01/2020 13:36

Actually Fenella, I think Doyoumind is right, my ex kept a flat he didn’t use but all contact was taking place at his girlfriend’s house, and he was often leaving DS overnight with her friends.

I knew where she lived so never pressed to know her address (it is a small town, he had hardly started dating her when a busy body came and tell me he was staying over With her mostly every night), he didn’t know I knew and when we were in court sorting a residence court order he insisted I should not get any details of where contact was taking place (no stalking on my part, he knew that living with someone who owns house would have a big impact in the separation of assets). So, the order was drafted on that previso and approved by the judge.

ImNotACuntYoureACunt · 05/01/2020 13:49

Tell him that you’re not moving to Brighton. If he doesn’t bring your son back at the correct time then call the police. They can go do a welfare check on them and talk to him and try to make him see sense and bring the little one home but unless your son is in immediate danger they can’t take him from his dad. I imagine that would be distressing for him anyway.

You really don’t need to your ex your new address. Your solicitor has said this and mine did too. The police also advised I didn’t tell my ex my address. Because it isn’t safe. Judges in family court understand this and won’t hold this against you.

I meet my ex in a public place for handover of our children. We have a contact book we are both meant to write in (but only I do) to avoid speaking to each other as the judge agreed with my solicitor that the less we spoke to each other the less I could be intimidated and the kids wouldn’t witness the ugly scenes they had previously when we were together. I also have a spare phone he can contact me on. This is to help me keep a healthy barrier between us so I don’t get sucked into his coercive control again.

Judges see cases like this all the time and while they do sometimes make poor decisions many others see the truth laid out in front of them in those rooms even if they don’t say as much. Don’t lose faith.

IdiotInDisguise · 05/01/2020 13:58

Yep, we also did handovers in a public place.

Having said, for the sake of keeping the peace, I would follow Mathsanxiety’s advice, release the address but get a non molestation order subsequently.

keeponandonandon · 05/01/2020 14:04

Does the order have power of arrest on it? If not, then the police wont have the power to anything so it will be down to the courts to deal with it. I would ask for power of arrest to be attached to any further orders, courts do not like doing this but will if absolutely necessary.

What a horrible situation for your son.

Quartz2208 · 05/01/2020 14:20

The OP seems to suggest her solicitor has told her not too so one assumes that is the correct advice given that they know the situation

OP just follow your advice I assume tomorrow you have a barrister and solicitor - I hope he will be given short shrift given what has come before

FenellaVelour · 05/01/2020 17:00

Idiotindisguise So, the order was drafted on that previso and approved by the judge.

Really surprised by this, in my experience judges will insist that both parents know where their child is staying unless there are very good (welfare) reasons to withhold the information.

IdiotInDisguise · 05/01/2020 17:07

Yep, it was like that, a designated public handover place was decided (I was happy with that, that worked better for me so I was happy to that, what I was not happy with was that he requested that all communication about DS had to go through his... girlfriend! I almost pissed myself with laughter about that one!

FenellaVelour · 05/01/2020 17:11

Ah, I guess if you consented to it, the order was drawn. Had you insisted, I imagine the judge might’ve felt differently. It’s very unusual for judges not to hold the view that both parents should know where their child is staying.

ChanandlerBongsNeighbour · 05/01/2020 17:12

Is your son back OP?

blueluce85 · 05/01/2020 17:13

Hi OP, did your ex return as per the court order? I really hope so, this would always be my worry

IdiotInDisguise · 05/01/2020 17:18

No it was not as if I consented to it, I certainly didn’t push it but I’m sure the OP solicitor is right, it is not always your right to know where contact takes place. Rare, but true.

Lovingmylife · 05/01/2020 17:21

Hope your child came back on time OP

IdiotInDisguise · 05/01/2020 17:21

Having said that, there is no much point in concealing your address, if you have the luck of having an abusive obsessive ex, he will find it pretty quickly unless you cut a lot of people out of your life.

Mathsanxiety advice is good, reveal address get a non molestation order.

lilmishap · 05/01/2020 17:26

Is there a police record of him breaking into your house?

ImNotACuntYoureACunt · 05/01/2020 17:58

The thing is, the ex has already acted illegally by breaking into the OPs home and stalking/harassing her. A non molestation order won’t make that behaviour more illegal and it would be naive to expect him to slap his forehead and go “I get it now! I’m an abusive twat!” Especially if there is a police record of it all.

IdiotInDisguise · 05/01/2020 18:08

True.

slipperywhensparticus · 05/01/2020 18:33

I hope you have security systems installed st your new address and you can get your social media locked via two step verification so he cant hack into it

mathanxiety · 05/01/2020 19:44

doyoumind, you have missed the point wrt giving the address. It may not be a general legal requirement but in this case it needs to be used in the context of an agreed order to make the ex look bad if he refuses to agree and to show the judge the OP has no plans to cause the ex to lose his visitation.

It should be done as part of an agreed order with both parties bound by it. The OP has stated that her ex has moved several times without telling her his new address, and is now threatening to keep the DS on Sunday. Without an order binding both parties to notify of a new address there is nothing stopping him from taking the DS to a location not known to the OP and holding onto him there.

By not giving the address (under the terms of an agreed order) the OP leaves herself vulnerable to the accusation the ex will bring - interfering with his rights.

And she absolutely must get that non- mol order and report the threats and blackmail she has suffered.

A he said /she said situation is to be avoided at all costs. It can very often go against a mother. Do NOT under any circumstances leave yourself open to the charge of game playing by means of the family court. The ex is executing a plan here. Sorry you can't see it, doyoumind, but it's straight from the fathers' rights playbook. He is also accusing the OP of something he himself is either doing or planning to do, a narcissist ploy.

I have extensive experience of dealing with a psycho exH, btw, including fighting off three separate motions for contempt of court brought by him as well as a protection order against me that he applied for, and I succeeded in getting a guardian ad litem appointed for my children as a result of which they no longer had to do EOW visits with a man not fit to take care of a dog, let alone teenage girls. ExH is a lawyer.

mathanxiety · 05/01/2020 19:53

ImNotACunt - your point about a police record of the exH breaking and entering is excellent. The OP cannot accuse the ex of any crime in court. It looks like game playing even if true.

OP you have to report what the ex has done and threatened, no matter what he has on you. He can be prosecuted for blackmail.

The ex won't see the light as a result of a non-mol order. He will be very angered by it. But if he breaches it the police can act.

ImNotACuntYoureACunt · 05/01/2020 20:26

Unfortunately non molestation orders aren’t always very effective. Honestly, from my own personal experience the safest option is the most obvious: ex doesn’t get to know the new address. As the RP, it’s her responsibility to keep herself and her child safe. Often the whole family court system is weighed so heavily one sided. My ex practically got a round of applause for turning up to supervised contact on time and attending a drug test. What a fucking brave wee trooper Hmm I got no such reception for actually bringing them up and doing all the usual hard slog. Not that I needed or wanted that but still.

Ayemama · 05/01/2020 20:29

I hope he took your wee boy home as planned he sounds alot like an ex of mine and I think you are 100% doing the right thing not telling him your address

ImNotACuntYoureACunt · 05/01/2020 20:30

Police record or not, disclose the lot to the solicitor and he or she will decide what is relayed to court. That’s their job. I have never gone to the police about my ex apart from the first time. The information I shared with my solicitor and SW was still treated as the truth by her, social services and the judge when making decisions about the children. Most likely because my ex shot himself in the foot numerous times during the process and made himself look like the abusive fuckhead that he is.

ImNotACuntYoureACunt · 05/01/2020 20:31

Yes I hope your son got home safely when he was meant to OP. Best of luck with the next step.

HigherFurtherFasterBaby · 05/01/2020 20:39

For those saying the other parent doesn’t need to know where the child is - DH was in court in September as his Ex was withholding their child because she had found out he occasionally stayed at my house with her and she didn’t know my address.

The judge agreed and banned him from having their child anywhere other than his residence Shock

I am literally the most boring person in the world, have my own DC, co parent really well with my ex, absolutely zero reason to rule that, but the Judge did. Giving more fuel to his controlling ex’s fire.

And we’ve yet to have another court date to get that removed from the order. CAFCASS have completely sided with DH on their S7, confirmed that his ex is controlling and was/is emotionally abusive to DH and their child.

OP - ring the police if your child isn’t back. They may or may not do something but at least you can show the Judge you attempted to get your child back.

And if you’re not already in touch with Womens Aid, please contact them. And Rights Of Women. They can help with a Non Mol. If he releases revenge porn he will be arrested.