Ex refusing to return son

[SiempreDot]

Cross posting here for traffic.

Ex came to pick up our son on friday and saw there were moving boxes. Temporarily moving to parents whilst a new house two minutes from ours is renovated.

I haven't told him our new address due to emotional abuse and stalking - this was based on legal advice from a solicitor who said there's no legal reason you have to disclose your address.

We are in an appeal hearing on a Monday where he has appealed the judge's decision which ruled against himS He has now text me to say he is refusing to bring our 3 year old son home because our son has said apparently we're moving to Brighton (we live in the north). This is totally bizarre. I believe he's trying to set me up before court on Monday to say I'm some kind of flight risk.

This is one of a long list of inflammatory things he's done before court. On Christmas Day, he refused to return him at the agreed time claiming his car had broken and then all his family had hidden their cars down a side road when I arrived.

I don't know what to do if he doesn't return him tomorrow? Can the police be involved? The court order says drop off at 5pm on Sunday.

If he does fail to to return him, I'm minded to say in court that he isn't safe to have our son because of his decision to engage in these games. Can someone advise me how to play this in court? And whether the police could do anything tomorrow?

Really out of my mind with worry.

Not the best link but www.separateddads.co.uk/what-happens-if-ex-keeps-children-without-consent.html

Thanks for responses.

To be fair, i did say we're moving locally, which we are.

And he has moved twice within court proceedings and refused to tell me where so he is being hypocritical.

I'd just reply to him stating that you aren't moving to Brighton and are staying locally and you expect the child to be returned as per the court order.

He’s being an idiot going against a court order when you are going to court on Monday. That will reflect badly on him.

I have no idea what to do in the meantime though.

I think he's doing this to get you stressed out before court. A court is not going to look favourably on him if he doesn't return your son as per the CAO so he would be shooting himself in the foot if he doesn't.

If you can prove your new address to the court and show there are no issues and he's making it up then use this to your advantage to show what game he's playing.

Try to remain calm. He's done this to upset you. Don't let him know he's getting to you.

Yes, you can involve police if he is in breach of the order. You can tell him you are giving him an hour's notice, then call them. The call is just for the record though. The police won't do anything. You will need your sol to get an emergency court order to return your DS. This isn't going to happen on a Sunday night. If he still have the DS on Monday, then you need to bring it up in front of the judge.

I think while your solicitor is completely correct in saying that if it isn't stipulated in the order then you don't have to release your new address to exH, you need to consider the impact on you if exH were to adopt the same tactic and you ended up not knowing where DS was being taken for visitation.

On Monday I would therefore volunteer for an agreed order that each parent is obliged to give the other any new address details within 24 hours of a new lease being signed, or a new mortgage for a new residence, or a move in with a partner, with the move in-date also to be supplied.

You are making yourself very vulnerable to a narrative of unreasonableness or even adbuction if you won't give the address.
I can't overstate how difficult you will make things for yourself, how much you will be shooting yourself in the foot, if you follow your sol's advice.

Unless exH has a conviction for domestic violence against you, your allegations of abuse will not be taken seriously by the court and you are going to come across as someone trying to interfere with your exH's visitation rights.

I haven't told him our new address due to emotional abuse and stalking
You should have got a protection/ restraining order for this, with a paper trail of police complaints beforehand.

Not telling him your new address is NOT the way to deal with your situation.

Get that restraining order if you have enough evidence.
Then you will have to go to court again to change the pickup and dropoff locations for your DS. Some neutral spot in public (a McDonalds/ other restaurant or specific spot at a local town square for instance).

I am sorry but your sol is not advising you well here.

First if all tell the ex that your staying in 'name town' but dont disclose the address, sobits clear to him that you obviously arebt moving to brighton.

Then Call 101 and log that the abusive ex with a court order to return your boy at 5pm on Sunday has said he won't return him at said time.
They won't take action as such but they will log it with a reference number, which will be useful in the future.
Keep a record of every single reference number from the police ever in one place to build a picture for the courts.

Then if he dousnt return son by say 6pm tomorrow, ide say call 999 or 101 as him breaking a court order in my understanding is a serious offence regardless of if the child is in danger, because it shows he has no respect for the courts , and because you have already reassured him you are staying in 'said town' , he has no logical reason to break the court order.
They will give you another reference number.
Weather they do anything or not, your side is on the books so its harder for the abusive ex to twist facts.

@SiempreDot

And he has moved twice within court proceedings and refused to tell me where so he is being hypocritical.

So you need to know his new addresses and he unfortunately needs to know too, and a restraining order is the way to keep him from contact and stalking, not radio silence on any new address.

Please volunteer for an agreed order wrt notification of address change within reasonable time on Monday ('reasonable' should be at least 48 hours before next scheduled visitation pickup/dropoff).

Then get a restraining order to deal with the stalking. At the moment you are both using visitation as a means of continued warfare with each other. You cannot withhold your address from a party who still has parental responsibility, and will be picking up and dropping off the child you share. You need to look like the reasonable party here trying to do everything above board. Again, I cannot overstate how vulnerable you are making yourself in court if you refuse to give your address. Seriously, you are risking disaster on Monday (50-50 residence awarded or a motion to show cause or motion for contempt against you) if you won't do this.

For Sunday, YYY to this:
Merrymumoftwo Sat 04-Jan-20 22:49:37

Police will do welfare check but you will need to take it back to court and request a motion for contempt of court. Police can’t forcibly remove just suggest that child is returned and if he refuses, given he also has parental responsibility, they can’t make him as this is a family court matter not a criminal one. Strongly suggest ringing solicitor

Ask your sol about motions of contempt and also motion to show cause (Dean summons).
Either way, your motion will be stronger if you give him fair warning that failure to return DS at 5 pm will result in you calling the police.

Thanks, I do appreciate all advice.

The problem with telling ex my new address is that over the last year he has broken into my home and stolen documents from my house, he has hand delivered letters and old emails to my house, sometimes as many as 2 per day over the last year. I have seen him parked outside my house late at night. He has hacked into my social media accounts.

I have no problem in telling him we are still local, as I did when he asked, and as we still are and, but I will not disclose my full address and i have been advised not to do so.

His reasons about moving to the other end of the country are so far fetched, it seems to me to be a means to create a narrative for court.

The problem with telling ex my new address is that over the last year he has broken into my home and stolen documents from my house, he has hand delivered letters and old emails to my house, sometimes as many as 2 per day over the last year. I have seen him parked outside my house late at night. He has hacked into my social media accounts.
GET A RESTRAINING ORDER

The answer to those problems is to install a security system and to call the police each time, and to get a restraining order.

NOT to move and not tell him your new address.

I know you have been advised not to tell your new address.

Your sol is NOT right to advise that course.

Of course exH is creating a narrative for court.

Please, please wake up and see the rings he is running around you here, and DO NOT DO WHAT YOUR SOL IS ADVISING YOU.

You are risking disaster on Monday if you don't volunteer for an agreed order wrt notification of address change.

Unless you have logged every single incident of stalking with the police and bring all that proof with you to court, all you have to go on is a he said/she said situation, and the court is sadly likely to agree with your exH's version of events.

It's a 70/30 chance that he will be believed.

Judges believe men.

You seem completely blinded to reality here.

Just to warn you even with a conviction for stalking (like my ex) court can chose to disclose your address.

I do all pick ups and drop offs to my ExH apart from when he picks up from school, and my address is still listed on the CAO as DDs permenant residence

@SiempreDot, if ColourfulPony's post doesn't illustrate to you how little the family courts care about even proven crimes against mothers, then you need a head wobble.

All you have is your allegations, and they are going to be dismissed.

Has your sol ever advised you to get a restraining order?

Thanks for your advice.

I did begin proceedings for a non-mol but then various things happened including ex threatening to divulge compromising photos if I did so.

I understand judges may not be sympathetic but that doesn't mean there's not an issue. After all, all of the judges I've encountered are in their 70s and there may be an issue of generation here.

Would that threat not be covered under revenge porn laws?

What's worse, your allegations are going to be dismissed 'with prejudice' and categorised as attempts on your part to blacken exH's name because you are a vindictive woman with an agenda of withholding your DS from his father.

Please, please understand what is going on here. He is trying to make you look as if you are planning to keep DS from him. In order to prove you are not, you will have to disclose your address in court.

Sorry, but the court will not accept 'same town' as your address, even if you offer a neutral place for pick up and drop off instead of disclosing your address, because exH has parental responsibility and court ordered visitation, thus has been found legally acceptable as a co-parent with you. The court will not accept 'same town' even if you bring up the stalking, even if you have physical evidence of it, and it would not even if had a restraining order (as ColourfulPony's post shows, it favours the interests of a child's relationship with his father regardless of what a low life the father is). Your allegation of stalking won't wash, sadly.

You can protect yourself with an agreed order wrt notification of change of address. He will look very bad if he refuses to agree to that offer. It will bind him too.

Then the other prong of your self protection is the restraining order, which you MUST get. This will instruct him as to prohibited contact both verbal/written and physical. There will be actual, serious consequences for breach of the order. You need to inform police if/when a breach happens (hence my advice to get security - which should include cameras).

Then go back to court with the restraining order and get a neutral pick up and dropoff place ordered.

I did begin proceedings for a non-mol but then various things happened including ex threatening to divulge compromising photos if I did so

Aha, I was wondering what he was using as leverage against you/ what was holding you back from the non-mol..

What other things happened?

You need to report that threat to police along with your application for the non-mol order. It's a crime in and of itself. Do you have proof of the threat?

If you’re not going to tell him your new address, where will he drop your DS off after the move?

OP, not for the first time, math is giving you poor advice. There is no requirement for your ex to know your address. I'm not a solicitor but I do know this. I don't believe it gives the court any kind of narrative.

I have to agree that unless there is potential to cause harm, not giving your address to someone you share a child with is just ridiculous (on both sides).

Osiris OP has told of the potential to cause harm. It's not ridiculous at all the withhold the address. It's possible to do hangovers at an alternative location. My abusive ex knows my address but there is a lot of information I keep private as I know he will use it against me if he knows. Unless you have experience of this kind of man, you can't understand.

*handovers! Bloody autocorrect.

When I divorced six years ago I was instructed that legally each parent with parental responsibility has to be informed of any change of address/venue for overnight stays. So, if the DC were staying at their grandparents for the night either of us had a legal right to be informed of the change of address. The same for holidays, we both inform the other of the address where we are staying.

You need to be complicit and show transparency, especially to the judge.

When my exh was particularly difficult I ensured I followed the court order to the letter, and still do.

Judges do not accept either parent playing games or wasting the courts time, ever.

Be very mindful of whining or complaining about your ex in court. You are attending court to amend your child's access rights, not a moaning/sagging off session. Stick to the basic facts. Good luck.

In England, at least, you don't have a legal right to know where a child is staying overnight. I wish a solicitor would come and confirm this.

you are being advised to get a restraining order. That can only be given by a judge at the time of sentencing, unless the police ask for one as part of a charge you aren't getting one.

You need a non-mol, and to make a statement to the police about the stalking and harassment.