Argument at National Heritage site

[EatGrassAndPuke]

Took DD to an abandoned Medieval village this morning. Nothing much there other than old foundations, info boards and the ruins of an old church dating back to 1200s.

When we got to the church there was a huge family there with kids running in and out of the church, slamming the (massive solid wood) door, climbing in and out of the windows screaming and running wild. DD asked if she could go and play in the church and I said no as it was very very old and needed looking after. DD obviously replied “but they are!” So I said “yes well they shouldn’t be”. Unbeknown to me one of their relatives was right behind me and asked if I had a problem with children playing. I said “not at all but I don’t agree with letting them slam the door and climb through the windows. There isn’t much left of the church as it is, we should be protecting it”. The woman then said “the church has stood here since the 11th century yet you think a group of small children can knock it down?”

At this point I tried to end the convo and said “knock it down, no. Damage it further, maybe. Bear in mind this is also a burial ground. Anyway, sorry if I offended you, I would just hate to see it get damaged”. I then started walking away. She followed and said I was out of order and it’s a shame my child isn’t allowed to play!!

WIBU?? I wasn’t rude, just didn’t agree with using an ancient ruin as a climbing frame!! But then I am a massive history geek so maybe I shouldn’t have said anything?

@MintyMabel sites like Wharram Percy are unmanned. There are no staff to step in. There are volunteer duty wardens whose job it is to check the site but not to man it. That does not mean climbing on the ruins is not a problem.

As I've already posted on this thread, I used to work in the English Heritage curatorial department. If I had received a call from the member of the public about what happened in the OP I would have had the duty warden out there ASAP. During my time with EH we had lots of similar call outs to unmanned sites.

Minty.

There are no staff at this particular site.

Did you expect some to be on emergency call?

English Heritage foolishly expect adults to police themselves and their children, without being told to do so by someone in authority.

Op had every right to step in because that's how a decent society works. When wrong does are doing wrong, it is up to every one of us to correct them before they turn us into a feral people who only do the right thing if someone in authority is there to stop them.

Hope you get the point but just in case you haven't-there is no-one in authority at this particular site. Therefore the OP was right to correct the Yahoo and more of us should do it.

Sadly, it does sound as if you are more likely to be on the receiving end

If they want to play take them to a playground ffs.

There’s an odd, particularly smug class of parent who seems to think it’s worthier to let their kids clamber wildly over ruins instead of climbing frames I reckon. Pisses all over someone else’s respectful enjoyment of the site too.

Backing you 100% on this op.

There are no staff at this particular site.

Then the ruin is not fragile and can deal with kids climbing on it. If it needed protecting, it would be protected.

Ha Ha Ha Ha!

Were you that woman? If not now, I bet you have been!

Luckily, almost everyone on the voting page disagrees with your-rather limited-world view.

@MintyMabel just because a site is unmanned does not mean it is not fragile.

We can put up signs and rope areas off, but ultimately you have to rely on people to have common sense and to have basic respect.

Sadly, it does sound as if you are more likely to be on the receiving end

My daughter is a wheelchair user. She couldn’t climb a ruin if her life depended on it. Nor would I let her if she could.

Equally, I would teach her why I didn’t want her to without shaming someone else who made different choices.

@MintyMabel just because a site is unmanned does not mean it is not fragile.

Fragile sites are protected. There are pretty strict rules laid down about that.

What doe your daughter being in a wheelchair have to do with it?

Would you let her run her wheelchair over a flower border?

Would you hang off fragile, old buildings?

Would you allow any other member of your party to do so?

You are on a losing wicket here. Please refrain from showing anymore of your arse than you have done, amusing though your 'arguments' have been.

Well done, OP. How easy it is to see how those who don't like been corrected for bad behaviour will keep following it up,

@MintyMabel did you miss the fact that I used to be a curator for EH? I managed a number of unmanned sites. Lots of them were fragile or had fragile areas which could be very vulnerable if treated harshly.

Had we unlimited budget then of course they would have been protected (although in many cases, protected would mean closed, and when you do that the public tend to complain for obvious reasons), but EH - and the NT for that matter - have never had unlimited budget and have always had to rely on the public using common sense and having basic decency on many sites.

Well done the OP. I worked for EH, could happily have slapped some of the Neanderthals and their offspring that visited some sites. No respect, no control and to be quite honest, at times no idea of how dangerous some sites can be. They misbehave, an accident happens but it’s never their fault. Spoils visiting and access for everyone.

YANBU her and the feral children should have had more respect. Plus why was she hurting into your private conversation. You were right for the record.

@MintyMabel did you miss the fact that I used to be a curator for EH? I managed a number of unmanned sites. Lots of them were fragile or had fragile areas which could be very vulnerable if treated harshly.

We’re they at them with pick axes? No, they were climbing on them. If a property is going to be ruinously damaged by people climbing on it, it would be closed for access. You will know of many sites that have been.

@T0tallyFuckedUpFamily l totally agree

@MintyMabel climbing on ruins is not normal treatment and is not OK.

Climbing on walls adds extra weight and stress which should not be there and hastens decay and erosion. Suddenly adding an extra 30kg to a wall which previously had no problems can dislodge stones from the top and either hit someone on the way down or cause whichever prat is climbing on it to take a nasty fall.

Ruins are not playgrounds and should not be treated as such.

If EH and the NT were to close all sites on which the above could happen they'd have none open.

Suddenly adding an extra 30kg to a wall which previously had no problems can dislodge stones from the top and either hit someone on the way down or cause whichever prat is climbing on it to take a nasty fall.

Snow and wind loads regularly add way more than that in the vast majority of areas of the U.K. Should we shout at those too?

You are aware, presumably, of the procedures requires around risk assessment and mitigation for the historic built environment? If a 30kg child climbing on a wall will dislodge a stone, the site would not pass a risk assessment. Which, you’ll agree, is contrary to the practice of managing visitors on these sites?

The reality is, these children would have done very little damage to the site. OP was feeling virtuous and instead of teaching her child why it might not be a good idea, she was arguing with complete strangers about their behaviour. The actual problem of what this family was doing has been way overblown here and you know it.

What doe your daughter being in a wheelchair have to do with it?

I was accused of being the type of person who lets their child do this. Her being in a wheelchair means she can’t climb on ruins.

Would you let her run her wheelchair over a flower border?

Because rolling over a flower and instantly killing them is the same as clambering over a piece of stone that is millions of years old 🙄

Did you deliberately leave out the part where I said I wouldn’t let her do it even if she could climb? That fucks up your argument somewhat, no wonder you didn’t mention it.

On looking up Wharram Percy, am delighted to find the map shows a nearby place called Wetwang! Arf!

Yorkshire knows how to deal with invading vandals, look up Stamford Bridge and Towton as well.

No, @MintyMabel. it doesn't fuck up my argument at all, as well you know or at least I hope you do.

Rolling wheels over flowers would instantly kill them and although clambering over walls wouldn't usually instantly destroy them-pieces falling off because of weight or kicking would-it kills them inch by inch over the years.

So, apart from the time frame there is no difference to damage is there?

If you wouldn't let a child that you were in charge of do it, it begs the question that that must be because you know it is wrong. If you know it is wrong, why are you defending a woman who did let children in her party do it?

Are you being bloody minded? Or are you one of the new breed who won't intervene when they see wrong doing-waiting for someone in authority to do it even if there is no such person about?

If it is neither of these, why are you defending a mannerless woman and the mannerless children she was in charge of?

We should all be congratulating the OP who stood up to the yahoo, even though the yahoo followed her around, metaphorically tugging on her sleeve.

Come now, @Mabel. add your voice to the congratulations of others , especially if you, knowing the woman was doing wrong, would have opted to do exactly nothing.

I don’t believe they were in the wrong.

I believe they do things differently to me. That doesn’t make me any better or more right than them.

I don’t believe they would have caused damage, that has been vastly over blown. My reasons not to climb would have nothing to do with causing damage.

Fragile sites are protected. There are pretty strict rules laid down about that.

The site is protected, it is an offence to damage it.

Can you explain why they weren’t in the wrong? Sounds like they were clearly showing little care for a historical site, and spoiling the visit for other people. That adds up to a lack of respect issue, for both property and other people in my books, and isn’t behaviour to tolerate without comment.

YANBU. I was at Botallack Mine in Cornwall a few days ago. It was a privilege to see the remains and we tried not to touch anything.

I wouldn’t have let my children run around and jump on things for a) respect and b) safety.