Wheelchair / buggy on bus

[MoonlightMistletoe]

Today I had got the bus with my sister we both have children I had my toddler who was walking and my one year old who's only just started to walk who is still in a buggy, my sister has a 12week old baby who was also in a buggy.

We had got on the bus as you do and the next stop another parent got on with their buggy, a few stops later we stop and straight away a woman is screaming/shouting at the rear doors with her phone in our faces demanding we collapse our buggies, very angry , shouting at us with buggies and also at the driver. The driver is telling us to stay put due to her being aggressive and recording us. Someone on the bus was telling us to co operate with the woman who wanted to get a person on the bus who was in a wheelchair. We know disabled people are a priority and had absolutely not said we wouldn't put the buggies down, I was taking my sleeping one year out the buggy while this woman was still swearing and being nasty and recording us, I had given my baby to my sister to sit with my toddler and herself while I was about to take her baby out the pram then all of a sudden everyone made a "ohhhhhhh" gasp and the disabled man has fallen down the side of the curb and bus sideways in his wheelchair.

She then looses her absolute shit at us for her own mistakes being so caught up in recording us to make sure we move that the man is now probably injured.

AIBU to think all she had to do was say excuse me can we move the buggies so I can get the wheelchair on?

We’re not allowed to be. We have to sit in the designated space, face backwards with the back of the chair against the “wall” and put the brakes on. If the wheelchair space is full, WE CAN’T GET ON THE DAMN BUS. I don’t care what you’ve seen or haven’t seen, that’s immaterial; wheelchair users on this thread have said it happens to them

@gingersausage you're a really powerful advocate for those with mobility issues - thanks for your posts.

I think what I see (and read here) is that there's a big problem about the POV:

"Of course I recognise it's a wheelchair space. When a wheelchair comes along then I'll fold up & move."

From what I see on crowded busy buses in a large city (not LOndon) t's already too late at that point. The bus is crowded so that it's difficult for people to rearrange themselves, even with good will to do it (and I"ve seen occasions when there's been the opposite of good will).

Or the driver decides that the 4 buggies (unfolded) mean that there's no room for a wheelchair and they've not stopped to assist in rearranging the space to accommodate the wheelchair. Buses in city traffic on tight timetables ...

And I really don't think wheelchair users should be reliant on buggy users to notice that they need to fold and get out of the way. Wheel chair users shouldn't have to wait, or be beholden to other people being polite or reasonable.

For these reasons - and gingersausage your eloquent expression of your regular daily experiences, I really wish we could go back to the practice of having to fold up before you get on a bus, and leaving the wheelchair space open & ready for a wheel chair user.

funny how people keep using the word "fair"
when we are talking about one wheelchair space(there is only one on my local buses) and how many buggy spaces??
I really wish buggys had to be folded as they used to be. then this problem would not occur.

@MoonlightMistletoe read your own thread. I was talking about a post that mentioned luggage.

@gingersausage

Apologies for using the wrong term, however the end of your comment was highly unnecessary.

My son is disabled but he is still a person hence me saying person. I wouldn’t say disabled user would I?

Anyway, you seem to be dismissing anyone’s experiences that isn’t the same as yours.

I can see and understand both sides of this without invalidating another’s experience.

I hate what you have encountered as a wheelchair user, but I stand by what I’ve seen for myself while acknowledging that what I’ve seen and experienced isn’t what others have.

Again, it should not be wheelchair users vs parents with buggies. It should be buses accommodating both when possible and enforcing the rules all across the board so it wouldn’t be an issue in the first place.

Thanks @Dolorabelle. A few people in this thread have made me feel really shit, but your words mean a lot.

As a partially sighted mum of 2 (1 still in a buggy) i am unable to use a sling, as am prone to trips and falls & therefore would be unsafe for my child. I also have night blindness and if i had to leave the bus and was unable to catch another, before it was to dark, i would be putting my children in danger as would not be able to supervise them. I very rarely catch the bus for this reason, as i wouldn't be able to put the buggy down.

I understand wheel chair users have priority but i find comments saying i shouldn't have children if i can’t put the buggy down highly offensive and believe as a disabled person i have a right to a normal life. Eg having children.

@FrancisCrawford Do you mean the disabled space takes up too much space already? Because it's not just a buggy space it's a priority space.

I haven't assumed other people can't stand and I don't see how four seats less can make a huge problem it will help if anything. Most of the time not all seats are filled anyway well not in my area when I've been on a bus. But I'm sure many people are capable of standing those same people who tell you to hurry up but don't offer to help.

That's good that's what any decent person would do. Obviously I was already on the bus and was being shouted at before I saw a wheelchair. Il avoid buses at all costs from now on.

@1ofeach2 Of course you have a right to have children that comment was ridiculous.

It just seems to me that people think people like me with buggies are a massive inconvenience. There will always be babies and children, there will always be wheelchair users , so why can't we have both as both are a priority when everyone else with no disabilities etc can just get a lovely seat and look out the window with no care in the world.

so why can't we have both as both are a priority

Not possible. You can't both take priority, it doesn't work like that. As has been pointed out countless times on this thread, disabled people campaigned tirelessly for the designated space on buses and are now expected to nicely and politely ask to use the space, because people with prams use them. NO!

I don't know how gingersausage has remained so calm on this thread to be honest, I've read it in utter disbelief at the sheer entitlement of people.

There is no comparison between a wheelchair and a childs buggy.
It is offensive to say they are the same.
Your child will use a buggy for how long?
My now adult child has been in one for over 20 years.
Really i do wish people would stop with this.
It is offensive

samcro there is no comparison, but why can’t they be dealt with as separate groups? As someone upthread said, it isn’t a competition between wheelchair users and mums with buggies. Each group deserve consideration in their own right. Maybe the front of the bus can be divided into halves - one accommodating buggies and the other designated for wheelchair users. The back half of the bus used for able bodied people. Every single one of us deserves to be able to use public transport comfortably.

@Samcro perhaps I worded that wrongly but what I mean is there will always be wheelchair users and there will always be buggies ok yes mine won't be in them for long but there will always be other parents with newborns. Hence why I said have two separate spaces but oh no all of a sudden there's not room for buggies ? How is that fair if people with no disabilities and are able to stand have a place on the bus but everyone else including wheelchair users are struggling?

Also it's so easy for people to say well you will have to get off if there is no space and walk or put on an extra tenner for the journey when really thinking about it how about people who are capable of walking walk themselves and then there will be more space for everybody else ? No you won't do that will you because at the end of the day it doesn't actually affect you like it does to those who struggle.

My OP was I was shocked at the abuse I received which I didn't deserve.

Now my points arnt directed at wheelchair users meaning I know you have priority and that's the least you deserve. I understand it's not easy when really you shouldn't have to struggle at all to get public transport.

People struggling with newborns and using buggies or using them for any reason you shouldn't be struggling either.

No one should be struggling that is my point.

Christ alive. These threads.

Buses suffer from all sorts of problems. In many places they’re rammed at rush hour and half-full to empty the remainder of the day. The comment above about all the abled passengers getting a lovely seat and a peaceful look out of the window made me laugh; I’ve used the bus every day for years and not had that experience!

Point being - a lot of buses are overcrowded nightmares. Space is premium. It should go without saying that wheelchair space is sacrosanct. It is not on the wheelchair user to ask permission. It should not be open to the driver to decide that asking buggies to be folded is too much hassle, so the wheelchair user has to wait. That space should be clear and immediately available for use.

The problem then for buggies is the overcrowding. The buses I get are standing room only 6.30am-9.30am and 4pm-7pm. If you want to remove rows of space for buggies to get priority over everyone else, you’re going to run into issues that wheelchair users have now - if people don’t want to move, it’s up to the driver.

The solution is bigger or more frequent buses, but then you come full circle: it buses are empty during large parts of the day, you don’t want more of them, or more empty space.

What’s the solution? God knows. But what absolutely boils my blood is the attitude that, having campaigned for decades for access to buses, wheelchair users are now reliant on the goodwill of the very people who’ve moved in and hoovered up those spaces for themselves. It’s shameful.

disabled people campaigned tirelessly for the designated space on buses and are now expected to nicely and politely ask to use the space, because people with prams use them.

You’ve put your finger exactly on what grinds my gears about these threads and the virtue signalling of “I use a wheelchair space but of course I’ll vacate it if I’m asked”

Wheelchair users (and other people with other disabilities) shouldn’t be in the position of having to ASK. They have to ask all the bloody time and look at the response - in the OP of this thread for example - when they or their carers behave in any way that is not
Humble
Polite
Asking
Subservient

That’s what really annoys me about the “of course I’ll fold if I’m asked” approach. Wheelchair users shouldn’t have to ask in the first place.

And no matter how they behave, that is their legally designated space.

And as for people being understanding of disabilities when they see them - rarely , in my experience. I had a badly broken arm which affected my balance etc. For 2 months it was in a big cast and for 18 months after that it was painful (complications from the break which awaited a second surgery). I used to get a bus to work - I travelled outside of rush hour but generally still had to stand. With only one useful arm standing on a moving bus was quite difficult. And the people least likely to offer me a seat - or even just make it easy for me to get down the aisle if the bus? Young mothers with babies in prams, all clogging up the disabled spaces at the front of the bus. I was once almost falling over - it took an elderly gentleman to give up hid seat for me. Those young women just stayed glued to their phones.

So I have had a small introduction to what it must be like daily for someone with far less mobility than I had.

It seems a lot of pram users think it is ok to trump wheelchair users on a bus, which us clearly wrong, until you have been in a wheelchair or cared for somebody in one you have no understanding of how hard it is to get around, a buggy is easy in comparison.

Would you then park in a disabled bay because it is empty?

I a really pissed off that the op has targeted me in her replies
If this really happened, which I doubt, the op shoud have at the very least have been worried about the man who was hurt, but no it was all about her and how upset she was and how things should be fair.
Fair
Ffs
Fair is allowing people to access the wheelchair space that is the only place theycan use on the bus.
Fairis not starting a thread that makes wheelchair users nad their carers feel like shit.
Fair is mn hq not allowing goady threads like this.
Fair is disablist posters being banned.
Fair is parents giving up their time to campaign like people with disabilities did to get access to public transport.
The person who,if this is real ,lost out is the thedisabled person.
Everyone else went on with their bus trip.

@Samcro Why are you pissed off? You are not a target you commented and I have replied.

Why would I make this up?
If you read my comments from the beginning of the thread you'd see that the bus driver told us to keep our buggies up ! I have said numerous times that the only person I feel sorry for is the man in the wheelchair ffs!

Why do carers and wheelchair users feel like shit I haven't said anything nasty I've said from the beginning they are priority and the least they deserve is a space for them!

The only reason why they didn't get on the bus was because she was being ABUSIVE as soon as the door opened!!!!

@Somanysocks No because there are actually parent and child parking spaces aswell as disabled spaces. That's if us parents are going shopping as usual

The bus driver told you to keep your buggies up. Can’t you see that disablist arsehole is part of the problem?!! Ffs.

Oh and P&C spaces are a courtesy to parents, not legally mandated.

The bus driver told you to keep your buggies up. Can’t you see that disablist arsehole is part of the problem?!! Ffs.

It's not disablist for him to save the OP faffing with the prams when he knew that they would not need to vacate the space.

The carer was being abusive before she had even got on the bus. If the bus driver was intending to refuse to allow her on board due to that abuse, and therefore knew that the gentleman in the wheelchair that she was accompanying was unlikely to board alone (either because he has dealt with her before or because it was obvious that the gentleman couldn't travel independently) then why should he not save the OP and her sister from all the unnecessary palavar of juggling the children and folding prams to vacate a space that was not going to be needed?

Melj
The carer by all appearances has had enough of spaces not being available and being turned away. Perhaps she is not dealing with the fact that the legally designated disabled spaces are permanently blocked by pram in the most rational way. However, the bus driver should stop fucking victim blaming. He is part of the problem.

It is not victim blaming for the driver to refuse travel to someone who is being abusive and aggressive before they have even stepped foot on the bus.

I work in retail and we have a right to refuse service to anyone being abusive/aggressive and can have them removed from our premises for it. This is no different. Regardless of how "justified" the woman's frustration is she has no right to be aggressive towards innocent parties and therefore the driver had every right to refuse "service" and not allow her on the bus.

The woman gave nobody a chance to vacate the space before she became aggressive (and it is entirely reasonable for someone to want to wait for the bus to stop before they start moving around) and therefore she was in the wrong.

Have you rtft? I suggest you go back and read how wheelchair users are made to feel. From the carers perspective she should not have had to wait for people in the legally designated space to vacate because they should it have been there in the first place. That’s the material point.

How many more buses did she have to wait for before she could board with the person in a wheelchair? But hey disabled people don’t matter.

Women with pushchairs could move after all... especially when they’re told not to. And people can just park in a disabled space cos they will only be there for a minute.

It’s just able bodied justification and bullshit expecting people to be grateful to allow them to use what is theirs by law.