AIBU that socialists should just implement their ideas outside of government?

[pinksauce]

Just that really – there are millions of people who voted Labour; but also millions who didn’t and don’t want anything to do with their policies. Why do socialists desire to impose their views?

Instead, why don’t all the millions who vote Labour get together and create a pooling of resources independent of the state? Each person who lines up with this philosophy could pay a high percentage of their wealth into a central fund and build hospitals, schools and subsidise higher wages without being in government..

Nothing is stopping people pooling their resources and paying for each other, offering enhanced benefits to their members, taking on debts for each other, transferring income as deemed appropriate – but they don’t seem to do it voluntarily, despite indicating they want to live in such a society. If it worked well, it may even attract more people.

Or, do people who believe in socialist ideals only want to do it if they can impose their will on those who don’t wish to be part of such a scheme?

"instead of trying to force people who don't agree with you into doing it".

So lets not bother doing anything that benefits society through government then. Plenty of people don't agree with lots of government policy but we don't expect the individuals who do to pay for it themselves.

Crap point.

For those saying they only do as much as they can are you genuinely doing as much as you can. If you aren’t working all the hours god gives you and then risking saving in an attempt to make more money and working to improve you cv at the same time then you’re not doing all you can, you are doing all you are willing to do

Yes you nurses, I am sure you can do 7 12hour shifts a week, and then maybe find a better job as we don't really need nurses anyway.

It wouldn't be the poorest doing this though, would it. It'd be the middle classes pooling together to fund their "members" and those who can't afford it would be left out. It'd be like a private society or something.

@malylis

‘Survivor bias’ = Has actually lived in these areas with these people instead of reading about it/watching documentaries and thinking they ‘know’. Has seen first hand the bad life choices, complacency and entitlement and knows that in roughly 80% of cases getting out is very much possible it’s just hard work 😬

‘Yes well rich people make bad choices too and it doesn’t backfire on them’ - firstly not true, I know of several ‘wealthy kids’ who got hooked on substances and did totally ruin their lives no family bail out.
Secondly, so what? If you’re not arguing for ‘equality’ then what does it matter if one person has more privilege than another?

Capitalism - Anyone can be rich but many people will be poor.
Communism - Everyone will have the same.
Socialism- Anyone can be rich but nobody will be poor.

You’re just arguing the semantics of ‘poor’ and ‘equal’.
Socialism does not mean every baby born has the same opportunities in life, food, education, support, iPads or prospects. It means every baby born will have their human rights met and a standard level provided. Food, shelter, warmth, education, health care.

Arguing because you think it should be ‘better’ or ‘equal’ (which is what you keep suggesting by comparing rich and poor kids) is an expansion on socialist ideals that you’re choosing to explore, it’s actually merging socialism with communism.

• Anybody can be rich, as long as they don’t use their wealth to advantage themselves or their children and everyone should have the same standards of healthcare/education/opportunities...etc ???

Also Please stop banging on about social mobility statistics. It doesn’t matter how much it ‘supports your point’ if your point is deeply flawed and badly presented to start with 👍🏻 Social mobility isn’t a right, you’re making assumptions that the cause of this is society’s failings.

If you are in favour of dismantling the NHS and the social security safety net, then its you that's imposing your views. You are the ones who think your lives are charmed and you will never need help, and you are demanding the rest of us accept the change.

Its exactly survivor bias and this is a completely accurate critique. Your entire claim then goes on to prove it.

What does it matter if one person has more privilege than another ? It matters greatly if we live in a society that ignores these privileges and attributes success to hard work and good decisions, as your own self attribution fallacy story appears to.

Stop banging on about social mobility statistics? you mean the ones that show there has been virtual none since about 1980? That the barriers to social mobility are significantly higher and harder to breach than at any other time since the 1930s?

You mean the ones that prove your anecdotes wrong?

When we live in a society that equates wealth and financial success as being the reward for hard work and ignores the significant inequalities in our society then yes it needs to be challenged.

The lack of social mobility, growing wealth inequality and the impacts of that are societies failings.

Shouldn’t it be the other way round? Shouldn’t the non-socialists refuse to pay tax whilst it goes to support hospitals, schools, public housing, benefits etc.

Oh that’s right, quite a lot of them do.

Are you paying towards all of these socialist elements of the current system OP? Shouldn’t you put your money where your mouth is, as it were?

@malylis -I don’t have any “straw men”. Ultimately as I said, success (Including financial success) is a mixture of different factors. Hard work is usually a part of that. Of course privilege helps people succeed but many succeed despite not having any so it’s not the whole story.

We have a (relatively) democratic set up and most people and politicians, irrespective of their politics, want to use it. You seem to be suggesting that they don’t bother. That’d make things less democratic.

It doesn’t work, humans are innately selfish and greedy.

If the income of your parents is the major determinant of success as a child then privilege is very important and looking at ways to equalise this are of top priority.

Those who fail to recognise this are usually guilty of self attribution bias and place all of their own success down to hard work (as you have done).

Hard work is a factor, but it is not the most important determinant of success.

Oh and you did have strawmen go look up the definition.

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'Revealed: A fifth of new Tory MPs have worked as lobbyists.
New MPs include lobbyists for banks, private healthcare and arms manufacturers'

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'The new Tory cohort includes a former head of communications for a private healthcare company, a top lobbyist for British bankers, a former staffer at Cambridge Analytica’s parent company, and former employees of firms which have represented the arms industry and the governments of Qatar and Kazakhstan.
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Four of Britain’s largest lobbying firms – Portland Communications, Grayling, Hanover Communications and Pagefield – now have at least one former employee in parliament.'
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Mark Fletcher, who replaced Dennis Skinner as MP for Bolsover, was the head of communications for Synergix Health for seven months in 2018. Its biggest brand is ‘Doctor Care Anywhere’, a health tech ‘telemedicine’ service that provides private GP consultations via an ‘app’, for a subscription payment or one-off fee. Doctor Care Anywhere has also started to secure contracts to provide its services to NHS GP surgeries including 6 surgeries in Plymouth. Mr Fletcher did not respond to our request for comment.

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Mark Logan, the new Conservative MP for Bolton North East, is the former head of global communications for the Chinese conglomerate Sanpower, Sanpower which owns multiple healthcare interests, including managing hospitals and ‘subscription health care’. The conglomerate includes ‘the largest telemedicine and home-based senior care company in Israel’. Speaking to openDemocracy, Mr Logan said: “I was with our Health Secretary earlier today and the message is resolutely clear: the NHS is not for sale. And we will now be commencing on the single biggest investment boost – £33.9bn.”

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Banking, weapons and Cambridge Analytica

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Anthony Browne, in South Cambridgeshire, was CEO of the British Bankers’ Association, the main lobby group for the banking industry, from 2012-2017.

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Sevenoakes MP Laura Trott is a former communications adviser to David Cameron who co-wrote the party’s 2015 manifesto, and went on to be a partner at the lobbying firm Portland until her election. Portland represents the governments of Qatar and Kazakhstan, numerous pharmaceutical companies, and the arms company BAE Systems.

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Fay Jones in Brecon and Radnorshire was the head of Wales for the global public relations and lobbying firm Grayling until her election this month. Grayling has numerous clients, including private healthcare companies, failed outsourcing giant Carillion, arms company Lockhead Martin and the National Casino Forum. Neither Trott nor Jones responded to our request for comment.

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Alicia Kearns, the new MP for Rutland and Melton, worked as a communications staff member at the Foreign Office, leading the departments’ communications in Iraq and Syria, and led the Ministry of Defence communications in Scotland during the independence referendum. She then moved into the private sector, where she designed and directed “counter violent extremism, counter disinformation, hybrid warfare and behaviour change programmes for Governments, militaries, and NGOs to build stronger and safer communities.”

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Imran Ahmed-Khan, the new Wakefield MP, worked for the military communications firm SCL from 2003-4, the parent company of Cambridge Analytica before working at the Syrian Media Centre, representing the Syrian government from 2004-5. He most recently worked at the advertising and PR firm M&C Saatchi.

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Neither Alicia Kearns nor Ahmed-Khan responded to openDemocracy’s requests for comment."

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www.opendemocracy.net/en/dark-money-investigations/revealed-fifth-new-tory-mps-have-worked-lobbyists/?fbclid=IwAR0T_f3D2EYYmN5XAyzeMA1Kn0bRpeZZjLtPlgUhQl7zF2e9sSPGKnw-wNA

Has seen first hand the bad life choices, complacency and entitlement and knows that in roughly 80% of cases getting out is very much possible it’s just hard work

For whom, when, under what conditions, what kind of hard work? Does it not trouble you, if you truly came from that kind of background (as did I) that the mechanisms some of us used to get out, directly or as the social support we got nowhere else, no longer exist?

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It just takes hard work.

Tell that to the thousands of retail staff working hard all day today, Boxing Day ... on top of working hard every other day .... companies may pay staff more for working on bank Holidays, but there is no legal requirement to do so.

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... While Eton Bullingdon Boy Boris has swanned off to a Caribbean Island (Mustique) .... he didn't even bother to turn up in the areas what have been badly flooded before Christmas.

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areas that have been badly flooded ...

Does this mean everyone who voted Tory will stop using public services

Excellent idea! I look forward to seeing them taking their rubbish to the tip instead of leaving it for the bin men and levitating, so that they're not using the pulicly built roads and pavements.

Does this mean everyone who voted Tory will stop using public services

Does this mean everyone who voted Tory can stop paying tax/NI/council tax? Because as long as they’re paying for the ‘sub par’ services they’re entirely entitled to use them 👍🏻

I'm not a labour voter, and I'm most certainly NOT a tory...

I give regular amounts of shopping trips to local food banks, including everyday items like toiletries, cleaning products, sanitary products, nappies etc... As well as little treats, because why shouldn't they have some biscuits, sweets, toys etc...

I also give regularly to homeless shelters and refuges, with warm clothing, socks, scarves, blankets sanitary and hygiene products, bedding, toys, puzzle books, novels etc...

People like myself ARE giving, in many ways, because the government are failing the most vulnerable members of society, whether you're to ignorant to accept that fact or not!!!

A lot of people do this already and what often happens is the government further reduces spending when they see that benefactors and volunteers are willing to help so the services can never actually improve the status quo.

Here's an idea, why don't Tory voters stop supporting the state and start being individuals with no access to state provided services.

See how long you keep what you think you earned.

I think this is a bizarre line of argument.

That’s like asking why don’t the 44% of people who voted conservative opt out of the EU, and of “extra services” and lower their own taxes. The way our democracy works is that there is a leading party. I voted Labour and can accept this.

I’m sad for all of the people this will hit hard, but we give to food banks and donate to other non-government services regularly. We could do more, definitely, but I’m not sure splitting the state into several factions based on preferences would do anything other than cause chaos! As healthy high tax payers and property owners we are likely to be made even more comfortable by the Tories, it just so happens that Labour aligns more with our moral beliefs. Sorry if you think voting for a party you don’t support is trying to “impose” something on you!

YANBU when he heard the election result DH was in tears!? I suggested to him that local communities pulling together was the way forward.

Many staunch labour supporters are in favour of increased immigration yet complain that the needy in society are suffering. The middle class socialists live in naice houses in naice areas with good schools. They are unlikely to be affected by more people coming to the UK. They are happy for those living in diverse communities to welcome people, knowing that they may not get a school place, an appointment at the surgery etc. themselves.

I think that those who feel strong if that we should do more should start their own version of community socialism.

I am neither Tory nor Labour - in the middle.

I would be happy to do more within my community. However agree with some other posters that there is a reliance on UC & the fact that people refuse to do certain jobs knowing their bills will be picked up by the state is wrong. Yes we need to help people BUT we need to take responsibility for ourselves.

Oooh nice immigration rant.

Any evidence for your claims or just prejudiced nonsense?

malylis no evidence except that in deprived areas Labour lost a lot of votes. UKIP has gained in popularity. People voted out of the EU I believe due to fear of immigration.

I live in a naice middle class area & have no issues getting doctor or dentist appointment & DC are in good schools.

I think lots of people in middle class areas underestimate the feelings of resentment in areas where there is little available social housing. People in those areas aren't keen to welcome more people in.

It's easy for myself & DH to be middle/left of centre.

Nigel Farage has gained frightening popularity in some traditional labour voting areas.