AIBU that socialists should just implement their ideas outside of government?

[pinksauce]

Just that really – there are millions of people who voted Labour; but also millions who didn’t and don’t want anything to do with their policies. Why do socialists desire to impose their views?

Instead, why don’t all the millions who vote Labour get together and create a pooling of resources independent of the state? Each person who lines up with this philosophy could pay a high percentage of their wealth into a central fund and build hospitals, schools and subsidise higher wages without being in government..

Nothing is stopping people pooling their resources and paying for each other, offering enhanced benefits to their members, taking on debts for each other, transferring income as deemed appropriate – but they don’t seem to do it voluntarily, despite indicating they want to live in such a society. If it worked well, it may even attract more people.

Or, do people who believe in socialist ideals only want to do it if they can impose their will on those who don’t wish to be part of such a scheme?

Don't be ridiculous. Many at least of those of us who voted for Labour understand the role of the state and the value of collective identity, structure and organisation. And were willing to pay for it. I disagree with this reduction of the role of the state, and you may all come to regret it as the identity of the state weakens with it, and the regions separate off one by one.

@CuckooCuckooClock

And the country rejected it - but nothing is stopping the 15m people implement a greater redistributive system between themselves.

This is the point of the thread - if 15m people believe in such a system, they can just implement it anyway - but for some reason will only do so if they can force all those who don't want to be part of it to do so.

Merry Christmas pink I hope Santa brings you what you asked for.

However, in UK , most people want to own their own property, unlike much of the rest of the world.

Oh FFS is this still doing the rounds? The rest of the world does own property. The rest of the world values owning property. The rest of Europe owns property. The UK now has one of the lowest home ownership rates in Europe. Only Germany and I think, Austria, are significantly lower. Look it up. Please. I am getting so sick of the levels of wilful ignorance in what is supposed to be an educated country.

Well you pay taxes for the current base, and pay a voluntary insurance scheme to Labour society to provide additional over the top benefits.

Oh ffs you literally have no understanding of socialism. Your model is private insurance! How will that help a homeless person or a child who has shitty parents or someone disabled who has had their benefits cut?

Socialism only works when it's effectively funded by tax from Capitalism.

Note effectively...

Socialists want equality. So everyone should pay tax. Not just big business. The government shouldn't be 'lifting' people out of the taxable income bracket year after year. Every wage should be taxed. Poor, rich, middle, lower, whatever. If everyone pays the same % as a minimum, then everyone has a chip in the bowl and an unignorable voice.

Without Capitalism, 99% of hardcore socialists wouldn't have a fucking job. I'd also be terrified of hiring any of them because generally, they do expect something for nothing and that those who work hard and earn more should share. Not in to that, personally. You work for what you want in life. It shouldn't be handed to you.

You know what, it's Christmas Eve. I wish you and yours love and light. I hope the world is a better, more caring place in future and I hope everyone lives and thrives.

I hope people see others. Really see them. As human beings as deserving of life and happiness as we are ourselves.

Peace and love everyone.

Wow OP, someone told you you were very bright for your age when you were 6 and you've never got over it have you?

People do this all the time. It’s called a commune. They never last.

As I said, wilful ignorance. Wilful ideological ignorance. As if no one works for things in this country - and has it all taken away from them by the bloody existing class structure and inequality. I do believe that everyone should be paying some taxes, and no one should ever have been taken out of the taxable income bracket completely, fwiw, but carry on with your soundbites. Adam Smith himself demolished the purity of your ideals within the first few pages of his most famous work, acknowledging that your purity can only happen when everyone is equal to start with.

There is a small something stopping a large scale system op. It's called the existing state. There are, as pp's have said, numerous small organisations that do similar things to what you're suggesting - charitable organisations, credit unions, cooperative groups, perhaps the mason and quaker organisations to some degree. But what you're suggesting is a state within a state. It would be a powerful organisation, encompassing a quarter of the population. The current state will not allow that kind of power rivalry, especially not from a carefully self-selected group. A shame really, as if we could grab a quarter of the territory and set it up I reckon it would work quite well. Certainly better than your rump state would.

OP if you use the NHS, roads, state education, or anything that is paid for by tax payers money, then that is an example of socialism in practice. The only difference is these things are being starved of funds under the current regime.

I think critical thinking should be taught in schools.

I think this is a great idea, we could call it Scotland. I am sure Lilly Allen and Stormzy will be the first to join up.

@pinksauce are you effectively saying socialist tax payers should pay taxes twice? One lot to the government and one for the things socialists would like to see happen in society? How would that work?

Have you been at the sherry?

Why is the OP suggesting that socialists start another state system? I'd prefer it if the conservative voters opted out of the current socialist systems, left them to the socialists and bugger of and self fund everything they use themselves. Lets see how far your money goes then OP, pave your own roads, hire your own bin men, doctors police, ambulance etc etc. Let me guess, that wouldn't suit you and you are, in fact, more than happy to benefit from the savings derived from economies of scale and collective purchasing power. As I said earlier, hypocrite.

Shouldn't you be in bed waiting for the ghost of Christmas present to come visit you?

Capitalism doesn’t work in its current form because the winners have won far too much at the expense of those at the bottom.

I can’t think of any billionaire who made those billions single handedly.

There needs to be a check on capitalism but what that looks like I don’t know.

Capitalism has given us excessive consumerism and climate change as we burn through our resources. It really isn’t that fabulous.

This has to be a joke - surely no one is actually this ridiculous?

While I'm personally building hospitals and schools I'll also build myself my own independent atmosphere and ecosystem so I don't need to worry about global warming!

Yeah, if you are not happy with the rate of pay of the person serving you at McDonald's just give them an extra pound.

The problem is some of the tightest people I know are self proclaimed socialists i.e. an ex colleague who always trio to slip out of paying their share when we split the bill for a meal.

@Soen they are generally not underfunded, they are/have been systemically just pisspoorly managed. And this has been the case for so long that even if new management could do a better job (doubtful) it's just pissing in the wind.

The Co Op.

Yeah...you've just effectively suggested private healthcare and education. That would work for people with money, which is exactly why middle class Tories already do this. The thing is, they have the money to spend on this. The poor don't. That's the point of socialism - evening it out so everyone benefits.

Marie Antoinette, is that you?

@Andysbestadventure i suppose the government will asset-strip services to within an inch of their lives. It's all they know.

OP if you use the NHS, roads, state education, or anything that is paid for by tax payers money, then that is an example of socialism in practice.

No. Those are not examples of socialism. Socialism is when the means of production are state owned. You have given examples of public goods which exist in both capitalism and socialism.