There’s no point being a moral vegetarian unless you’re prepared to be vegan

[aveline161]

If you care about animal welfare/ dislike the idea of animals dying for food, you should acknowledge the horrors of the dairy industry and go vegan

If going vegetarian increases your dairy consumption it probably does not make "welfare" better.

Very little rose veal is eaten in the UK, male dairy calves are therefore killed very young... to an extent farmers attempt to sex select if using AI to breed but natural covering obviously you can't do that.

Environment and feed wise UK beef and lamb are raised primarily on grass either as it grows or as silage. Dairy cows are fed much more grain.

Sheep are out except when lambing, beef cows live out except in the worst of the weather (hardy/moorland breeds all year), dairy cows are in a lot more and even in the UK some are never allowed to graze.

My first step on welfare grounds would be to cut dairy (possible exception for goat milk as I think it is less intensively farmed) and only eat high welfare meat.

Eggs are debatable- eggs from true free range hens are probably better ethically run some foreign grown vegan protein sources...

I agree. If people are vegetarian because ‘aww animals’ rather than environmental impact it makes no sense that they continue to consume dairy products.

"Isn’t that like saying ‘I can’t/won’t give up absolutely every single thing which is harmful to the environment and therefore I won’t make any changes at all’ hmm"

This exactly this. It's about making small changes rather than insulting someone for not being perfect in your eyes

I can see where you're coming from but surely not eating meat is better than eating meat, even if you're consuming dairy? It could still affect supply and demand, so less animals would be sent to slaughter if there's less demand? Or am I being really naïve here?

I am not perfect. I do what I can manage. That includes close to 40 years of not consuming a single dead animal. Does that make me better or worse than someone who has been vegan for 5 minutes months?

being vegan is far more complicated. Its a very restrictive diet

Urgh. When will people stop spouting this ill-advised rubbish?

I see vegetarianism as being a stepping stone to veganism. That's how we transitioned, slowly over a matter of months. Now it's like second nature being vegan and can't fault it :) it's certainly not restrictive!

I'm vegan and YABU. Agree with above posters who say harm reduction is better than making no attempt at all.

Personally I've never understood vegetarianism. it seems to assume that killing animals is worse than them suffering over a longer life for our gain. That said, I am a meat eater as I think animals are not human and some people judge their lives as if they were. I don't expect to understand other's choices. I just think it works best when we accept difference and try not to judge each other.

I'd rather eat a locally produced steak than an avocado shipped here from Peru. I think environmental impact and animal welfare aren't as straightforward as we'd all like, and my personal choice is to buy from small producers locally where possible, but everyone has to make their own choices based on what they're comfortable with and can afford.

I'm a vegan, and I think the opening post is complete bollocks.

Not restrictive? So, you can eat whatever you want?
Restrictive is not the same as boring you know. I didn't say it was a bad diet, just not easy for all. Of course you can eat what you want, within the vegan guidelines. Some of that will be very tasty indeed. I'm not saying different. Doesn't mean every person can or wants to. I respect those that do, but its not for me

Gassed day-old male chicks are fed to animals in zoos, shelters & rescues, private home pets (snakes, owls, crows, foxes, ferrets, etc.)

So you think if people can't go vegan they should eat meat? No halfway houses?

What randomsabreuse said. In animal welfare terms, dairy is much the worst, at least from cows.

I sympathise with vegan ideals and try to have a couple of vegan meals a week. Should I not bother? What a self righteous attitude OP.

If you're a vegan who shuns animal products like wool in fabrics then you're probably wearing something made of microplastics which will harm ocean life, but it's neither as cute and fluffy as baby farm animals, nor as noisy when it expresses pain, so people don't seem to care as much.

YABU. The all or nothing mentality isn't healthy.

My first step on welfare grounds would be to cut dairy (possible exception for goat milk as I think it is less intensively farmed) and only eat high welfare meat.

I can't see sense in that. You can just buy dairy from high welfare cows. They will produce 20l+ of milk a day so one cow can keep a street going for many years. How you arrive at the conclusion that it's better to kill loads of animals in that time for steak on welfare grounds is beyond me.

People can eat what they like but vegetarians who take the moral high ground but still eat dairy (I have known quite a few) really annoy me.

If you completely cut out you consumption of ethically sourced meat and replace much of the lost protein with dairy then you are probably increasing suffering rather than decreasing it. But likewise if you are lactose intolerant, have your own chickens for eggs and go vegetarian then you’re largely eliminating animal suffering from your food chain (I say largely because meat eaters contribute to the production of vegetable crops so if we’re going to be really pedantic a proportion of their nutritional intake relative to energy expended on farming, logistics etc also firms part of your food chain).

You can just buy dairy from high welfare cows. They will produce 20l+ of milk a day so one cow can keep a street going for many years but the cows have to be pregnant to provide the milk, half of those calves will be male and have to be slaughtered.

Using your line of reasoning OP there’s also no point in being a moral vegan without literally never eating a vegetable.(far more living beings are killed because of the cultivation of crops than live stock for producing meat)

Or leaving the house. How many bugs are you killing on your walk to work?

Thank you @noneedtoberudedear I didn't know that.

"If you're not vegetarian then you should be prepared to microwave live cats as a form of entertainment"

No wait

It doesn't work like that.

"but the cows have to be pregnant to provide the milk, half of those calves will be male and have to be slaughtered."

And 100% of those calves will be taken from their mothers within days of their birth.

I am 90% veggie because I don't particularly like meat. Not because of my love for animals.
Eggs, cheese and butter are 3 of my favourite things.