AIBU - when it is not the child but the teacher?

[NorthernStar412]

I have a daughter currently on year 5 and another in year 1, so over the years, counting in all the nursery teachers and assistants we have encountered a good number of teachers, all of whom we have had great rapport and worked well with, in good and bad. Until now...

I cannot help but think that my eldest daughter's teacher genuinely dislikes her and is struggling to hide it. I am not thinking that my kids are perfect and I have always addressed any issues when raised but the overall sense I am getting is that there is constant nagging about every.single.thing my eldest gets wrong and very little praise for the things she gets right. When she attempts to explain herself or give further information about an incident for example, she gets told off for back-talking and swiftly shut down. The manner in which the teacher talks, in particular, to my daughter has been observed by other parents in shock.

I do appreciate that there are tones and words that can be interpreted as rude and have talked about this to my daughter but after months of this, I am beginning to think the picture isn't quite right. It genuinely is starting to feel like that there is no room for any questioning in any shape or form. To my bafflement, my daughter's learning goal for the term was set by the teacher as 'obey all instructions at once, without discussion'. This to me seems like an odd learning goal in a school that has critical thinking as one of their values and for DD, who is hugely enthusiastic about learning, miles ahead of her classmates in reading, writing and doing above expectations in math as well. DD comes with a strong sense of justice and is quick to stand up for any injustice. In addition, she applies critical thinking and evaluates what she is reading for example but it would appear that anything that even vaguely challenges the teacher is not allowed. Once again, I fully appreciate that it is difficult to get anything done if every child asks clarifications all the time but surely there are times when a question is valid? I mean just think of those people, who blindly follow their satnavs and end up in rivers...

Having read various threads where anyone, who dares to raise the possibility that a teacher is not a demi-god, who is always right about everything while all the children are badly brought up brats and parents ever so precious, is berated, I still have to ask if I am being unreasonable thinking that there are in fact some teachers, who are not entirely fair or professional?

You've got 3 days (?) left at the school. Why even worry about it?

I challenge the perception that Mumsnet thinks teachers can do no wrong. Teachers are people and do stuff wrong like in any industry. There are crap teachers just like there are crap nurses, hairdressers, drivers etc.

What I do see rightly challenged is the idea that just because a child says it happened, or happened a particular way then that is automatically accepted. Frequently parents post on here about "marching down to school and raising Hell" etc and are told to get a grip, and have a calm, reasoned conversation with the teacher to get the full facts before making a judgement.

Back to you situation, OP it does sound quite odd and I would look to speak to the teacher about her tone and the learning goal, and then speak to the Head if you don't get anywhere. They will have a complaints procedure if things don't improve.

I mean, your question in the last para. of your OP is so leading that I don't believe it's genuine. However, as it's the season of goodwill, yes, of course it's possible for teachers to be: (a) unfair; and (b) unprofessional. They are humans.

That said, humans (including teachers) don't tend to be totally illogical and irrational, so I suspect you're not getting the full picture from your DD. If she's miles ahead of every other child in the classroom (if not the entire school), then she probably doesn't need to be asking questions/adding information/verbally demonstrating her critical thinking skills/fighting injustice all of the time. You're moving anyway, so all of this is moot, but it might be worth your DD learning the lesson that not every teacher will appreciate her contributions as much as her previous ones have done.

The example you've given of your DD not having caught up on work she'd missed whilst she was off, leaving her chair to interrupt the teacher and then being impatient whilst waiting for the teacher to finish with the rest of the class before dealing with DD's query doesn't seem to illustrate the teacher's unreasonableness quite as well as I think you believe it does OP.

Yep. This.

When told to sit down in class, there is a reason for this and putting your hand up and waiting patiently is the correct way of getting a teacher's attention. If all 30+ kids had a question or needed some form of help and got up and walked to the teacher it would be pandemonium - and whilst to us adults it sounds very arbitrary that you'd have to sit and wait with a hand in the air, the teachers can't just allow your DD to disregard the classroom rules/etiquette as it sets the tone for everyone else to follow suit. Please also remember that schools are critically underfunded at the moment, and whereas classes may have had a TA or two to help the teacher get around to all pupils that isn't always the case now and so sadly pupils may need to wait a few mins with their hand up whilst the teacher prioritizes the different questions/needs at any one time.

The teacher may well have taken a disliking to DD, but more often than not there is a reason behind that which warrants exploring.

I've always told my dcs that adults can be unreasonable sometimes, just like children. We have a family joke about "unreasonable teachers".

What I have done over the years, is to teach them techniques for handling them, eg. listen carefully to what they are saying, try and do as you are asked, but stick up for yourself calmly if you really feel they are in the wrong.

Try hard for them, remember they may be having a bad day, or not feeling well, or may be upset about something at home.

Remember that teachers are human, abd you can't get on with everyone, but if you're stuck in a classroom with them for months, don't think of them as an enemy.

Usually works. DS1 had a particularly tricky teacher (secondary school), who threatened detentions when he asked for help in something he didn't understand. I tried to meet with her, she refused, even the form teacher was appalled.

Suggested to DS that we simply try the "unreasonable teacher" approach, and it worked a treat.

I had one teacher like this at school (among the other 99% wonderful, inspiring teachers). She obviously thought I was a know it all (not sure why - I was a high achiever but very insecure and always worrying about being seen a fraud). I still remember her making comments "IceCreamFace you're not particularly clever", "Stop showing off" etc. This was in response to me just asking questions to make sure I'd understood.

My eldest is definitely the type of child who asks too many questions and needs to be more patient and allow others a chance to hear explanations and give their point of view but luckily his school have been amazing at encouraging his enthusiasm while setting boundaries on appropriate behaviour and emphasising consideration for others. He wouldn't do well with a "just shut up and what I say" attitude but at the same time does need clear boundaries and consequences within a supportive atmosphere.

but surely there are times when a question is valid?

That is not issue. It appears to be the case that your child is disrupting lessons frequently.

It’s hard to comment without being a fly on the wall. It’s perfectly possible that there’s a personality clash but that learning target is very pointed.

I’d speak to the teacher and try to get an idea of just how much your DD is speaking/questioning over the course of a day and week. Get some concrete examples. Perhaps it’s the sheer amount of questioning rather than any massive disobedience? I don’t know but I think you need to find out precisely what the issue is.

Your DD has given you examples but you need input from the teacher before you can judge if they’re an accurate description of what happened.

I was a chatterbox at school and I did feel picked in by a few teachers, but now as an adult, I can see that they were probably trying to nip any chat in the bud before I got going too much.

What I have done over the years, is to teach them techniques for handling them, eg. listen carefully to what they are saying, try and do as you are asked, but stick up for yourself calmly if you really feel they are in the wrong.

Try hard for them, remember they may be having a bad day, or not feeling well, or may be upset about something at home.

Remember that teachers are human, abd you can't get on with everyone, but if you're stuck in a classroom with them for months, don't think of them as an enemy
Have you been spying on my mentoring with members of my tutor group!

This is exactly what I say to them when they're having a difficult time with an unreasonable teacher or a teacher where neither the child nor the teacher is being unreasonable but neither are seeing each other's point of view.

I regularly say to students "if you think Mr Mrs X has made a mistake or you want to put your point of view across then there's ways to do that will escalate a situation and ways to do it that calm the situation. Part of life is learning this".

I would like her to be able to explain her side or what she has observed, if appropriate.

IME, the middle of the lesson was never the appropriate place or time to have this sort of discussion. Perhaps this teacher simply doesn’t allow teaching to stop in order to hear special pleading about perceived injustices. If that’s the case, then I think the teacher is doing the right thing.

Well I hope you take some of these comments on board OP and consider them if your DD encounters a similar situation again.

In my experience if putting kids through school, it's better to work with the teacher and not automatically take your child's side. Your role is to help them negotiate their way through school (and by the time your DD gets to secondary, she will likely encounter other teachers she gets on less well with) and that doesn't mean thinking your child is always right.

And fwiw the precocity which is charming in younger children becomes markedly less so as they get older.

My original response was a very long post in response to your opening post. Having now read all the good advice, I have decided to shorten it to:

Sometimes the lessons we need to learn are the ones least palatable to us.

Your DD sounds exactly like my DD, even down to the "previous teachers all loved her" comment.

But to be honest I see the teachers point, because she tends to get on even MY last nerves sometimes.

She is really struggling this year because she has always been one of the bright ones / favourites / teachers pets whatever. This new teacher doesn't think she's all that, and obviously doesn't have as a high a tolerance for her "strong sense of injustice and inquisitive mind". Whenever there is nonsense, where a previous teacher might have asked for DDs side of the story, this new one just has a blanket "you five have lost golden time".

I've tried to explain to her it doesn't matter that X was being loud first, or Y started it. The details don't matter. You were part of it, the teacher doesn't have time to care, so suck it up. And if you don't like it, next time walk away from the nonsense.

Regarding her thoughts that the teacher doesn't like her, I've told DD that's just the way it is 🤷🏻‍♀️ I've had bosses who've loved me and some who clearly haven't taken to me (I have the same traits, though thankfully I've learned to reign them in).

Honestly the best thing you can do for her is remind her it's only a year, and tell her to get on with it. Do what the teacher tells her. Remind her she's there to learn and not to chat. (They're always chatty). I think not being "the favourite" this year will do both my DD and yours the world of good in the long run.

To my bafflement, my daughter's learning goal for the term was set by the teacher as 'obey all instructions at once, without discussion'

It sounds like your daughter maybe making a nuisance of herself, albeit not necessarily on purpose. There are children, however, who feel the need to have the last word and/or who question every single thing you ask them to do to the nth degree, including demanding that you explain something that every other child in the class just does automatically (like put pen to paper, for example).

Do you think that the teacher's instructions are up for negotiation by each individual child in the classroom?

We've a horrible teacher in dd3s school

Not going into details but she's well known for it.

She even told my daughter's class that Santa wasn't real last year..she was 7..parents were fuming

Rest of the school is lovely

The learning goal tells you all you need to know about this teacher. Only an incompetent teacher would expect to be obeyed with no questions asked, at all times. A decent teacher would know how to manage different individuals, how to motivate those with low self-esteem, how to rein in those who are overwhelmingly enthusiastic, how to harness the helpful ones and support the children who need extra support. Nothing is gained by teaching children to be mindless automata unless you foresee a career as canon fodder for them in the army. No other career or path in life requires you to blindly obey orders and some of the worst atrocities in human history have been carried out because ordinary people didn’t have the courage to speak up and disagree. I work in character education and there isn’t a single moral education theory that requires unthinking obedience to authority.

I am glad you are moving OP before this appalling teacher damages your DD.

I think is totally unacceptable. It is not a 'learning goal', it is an order. I certainly would not want my child to learn that.

yika
Learning goals and targets are often phrased as an instruction.

My last set of reports had things like:

• Ensure X is revising regularly using ...
• X must remember to read the question and plan their answer
• X needs to pay attention to task directions and follow them

If a child ignoring instructions or arguing back is affecting their learning then a goal about following instructions is totally reasonable, though I'd have phrased it slightly differently.

I agree with others. What you describe as ‘a strong sense of justice’ and ‘critical thinking’ might come across to her teacher as argumentative, pedantic and disruptive. I’m not saying it does, just that it very well might. The language you’ve used is very positive because she’s your child and of course you love her. But like a PP said, the traits you love about her could be very disruptive in an class of many students.

OP I'm not sure why you haven't just sat down calmly with your DDs teacher and asked why. I realise DD is bright etc etc and is also moving on but it might help her transition. It doesn't mean dampening down her questioning nature or sense of injustice but might help her - if there is a problem at all - realise how to channel it.

Hi
My daughter has just moved to the secondary school in September. She has trouble with the maths teacher who gave her isolation two times in the last month. I am forced to believe that he has something against DD or it's that they've developed dislike for each other. I tried to talk to the teacher last time. He refused to have a face to face meeting and sent quite a strong email back to me when I tried to tell him that this isolation thing wouldn't work for DD and if we can discuss in person?
Can this even happen that they pick on your child more than others? Has anyone dealt with this kind of situation? I am not sure if asking the school to change her class would be the right thing to do? How should I approach it especially when isolation means that she spends a whole day in a separate room not classes.
Lastly just to be clear she hasn't had trouble with any other teachers.

The teacher knows your daughter is more intelligent than herself and doesn't like it.

teacher here. this def happens. some teachers dislike some kids. most hide it, but quite a few can't/don't. this has such a big impact on kids over the course of a year.

The teacher knows your daughter is more intelligent than herself and doesn't like it.

That has to be the least likely suggestion ever.