AIBU - when it is not the child but the teacher?

[NorthernStar412]

I have a daughter currently on year 5 and another in year 1, so over the years, counting in all the nursery teachers and assistants we have encountered a good number of teachers, all of whom we have had great rapport and worked well with, in good and bad. Until now...

I cannot help but think that my eldest daughter's teacher genuinely dislikes her and is struggling to hide it. I am not thinking that my kids are perfect and I have always addressed any issues when raised but the overall sense I am getting is that there is constant nagging about every.single.thing my eldest gets wrong and very little praise for the things she gets right. When she attempts to explain herself or give further information about an incident for example, she gets told off for back-talking and swiftly shut down. The manner in which the teacher talks, in particular, to my daughter has been observed by other parents in shock.

I do appreciate that there are tones and words that can be interpreted as rude and have talked about this to my daughter but after months of this, I am beginning to think the picture isn't quite right. It genuinely is starting to feel like that there is no room for any questioning in any shape or form. To my bafflement, my daughter's learning goal for the term was set by the teacher as 'obey all instructions at once, without discussion'. This to me seems like an odd learning goal in a school that has critical thinking as one of their values and for DD, who is hugely enthusiastic about learning, miles ahead of her classmates in reading, writing and doing above expectations in math as well. DD comes with a strong sense of justice and is quick to stand up for any injustice. In addition, she applies critical thinking and evaluates what she is reading for example but it would appear that anything that even vaguely challenges the teacher is not allowed. Once again, I fully appreciate that it is difficult to get anything done if every child asks clarifications all the time but surely there are times when a question is valid? I mean just think of those people, who blindly follow their satnavs and end up in rivers...

Having read various threads where anyone, who dares to raise the possibility that a teacher is not a demi-god, who is always right about everything while all the children are badly brought up brats and parents ever so precious, is berated, I still have to ask if I am being unreasonable thinking that there are in fact some teachers, who are not entirely fair or professional?

Why is the learning target not appropriate? I would in fact expect that to be one of the classroom rules, so obvious that it shouldn't need to be a target.

If I'm honest, over my long career, there were some children it was harder to get along with, but the professional attitude has to be that you as the grownup, have to be the one to make the effort. But the teeth might be gritted.……
I have to confess that my late mother often related how, at Parents' Evening, comments moved from "bossy and argumentative" to "articulate with good organising ability". I didn't really change; I just learned, sometimes painfully, to be more subtle (some would say devious).
Perhaps a little probing about the questions, and prepare to be the alternative sounding board as the Christmas holidays approach.

I've no idea whether the teacher is picking on your dd or not, but it is perfectly possible and, if so, completely unacceptable. As an adult, teachers should hide their personal feelings and treat the children equally. Most teachers manage that but some don't.

My ds had a teacher who admitted to me that he treated my son unfairly because my son's personality was not the type that appealed to him. Ds is pretty private and not very chatty. Ds hadn’t told me about the teacher’s treatment of him, it was other parents whose children had told them how unfair the teacher was.

I started by talking to the teacher, who in fairness, admitted it. He improved for a bit but then went back to the unfair treatment. Then dh and I spoke to him and again, improved for a bit. We ended up going to the head who had a steady stream of complaints about the teacher from other parents too. Basically, we managed to get through the year and minimised the behaviour by repeated discussions with the teacher and the head.

It’s not appropriate because it’s quite clearly asking children to leave their brain at the door. Most (if not all) teachers will ask children to do something at some point that should be questioned- the wrong person gets blamed, another member of staff has told them something contradictory, the teacher doesn’t know something that would change their instruction, the list is endless. It’s also potentially unsafe. Sadly even school staff can be criminal. I wouldn’t want any child of mine to meet that learning target. A more sensible target would be “follow instructions promptly and saves questions to an appropriate moment”.

The way the target is written shows the teacher is either very angry and not dealing with it properly or lacks basic communication skills.
When I was on SLT if I’d seen that kind of target I would have insisted it was changed and also delved into how such a bizarre target had every been written.

Have you asked for examples of why she needs that learning goal? It might give you some insight and may clarify what issues are presenting in school that you may or may not be aware of? It's an odd goal, but does suggest your DD may be a child who questions everything, and that can be disruptive to a classroom if its constantly.

I had a teacher that just didn't like me at primary school, my Y5 teacher. She preferred my older brother, who was a few years ahead of me. She was very critical, apparently (so it eventually transpired) to motivate me to push myself and prove her wrong. Didn't really work though, it just made me hate her!

It could be the teacher. I don't like the word "obey", as it infers "blindly follow". However, that learning goal has come from somewhere, so it makes me wonder if every instruction is questioned needlessly... I'd meet with the teacher to discuss this.

Il pop back!

Well I think you need to make an appointment to speak to the teacher. Don't go on the attack. Just try to clarify that goal.
Teachers are humans. Some of them are better at dealing with children that others. Some of them are better at teaching than others.
I imagine in a class of 30, there are some children who are more challenging to deal with than others. And I re-iterate, teachers are human, albeit humans who have been trained to teach large groups of children.
For instance. My youngest is an amazing, amazing human being. He is clever, knowledgeable, empathetic, curious, funny, affectionate and kind. To everyone. This has been reported back by every teacher he has ever had up to now (Y5)
He also struggles to keep his trap shut in class. He questions everything, and is a bit of a know it all. Its a little disruptive shall we say. This has also been reported by every teacher he has ever had. DS2 is lovely but he struggles to stay quiet when its time for them to be quiet...

It could just be that this particular teacher has had enough.
You won't know without asking. best of luck.

When we were looking at secondary schools, there was one with exactly the same rule - obey instructions the first time of asking - so if your DD does not modify her behaviour now she's in for a shock at secondary where the consquences will be greater!

Critical thinking in school does not require speech or constant questioning. She doesn't have to comment or get involved in everything that is going on.

Just think of those argumentative people who have to take the opposite view on any subject that is being discussed and express their own opinion. That's not appropriate in a class where one wall of sound cuts down on everyone else's chance to contribute.

It is difficult when it is your own child, I do get that. I would have a meeting with the teacher to discuss it. Not all teachers are perfect no, but most lessons are pre-planned and the content in primary is often repeated from year to year so I do think it's very unlikely that there is an issue with the lesson content tbh!

She's been told not to question instructions from the teacher, not "leave her brain at the door'

'Go and put your things in your lockers'
'Don't open your books until I ask you to'
'Please sit down'

Those are instructions. If those are what the OP's DD is challenging with her sense of justice and critical thinking then, I cam see why the teacher is irritated.

FWIW I was also one of those children. You learn when it's appropriate to challenge and when not to and year 5 was when I learned that the hard way too

I'm usually pro-teacher but I would be querying that "learning goal" with the school! Seems hugely inappropriate to me, and at the very least you need to understand what is behind it.

She is in Yr5 now and should know how to behave in class during lessons. Your description of her sounds like 1-1 she is a charming inquisitive very communicative child, but it isn't 1-1, she is being taught in the group setting and should know how to behave in that setting by now. Yr1-4 teachers will have been more tolerant of any 'over enthusiasm' at the wrong time and if your dd cannot control herself yet and is now, quite reasonably, being told off for it she obviously wont like this teacher.

If you want to follow up with more detail go in and speak to the teacher, but go in with an open mind to find out what the problems are and what is expected from your dd now.

As I said, I am not thinking that my child is perfect and I do fully understand the element that asking a question can cause disruption. Having said that none of her previous teachers have ever found her disruptive, and learning goals have varied from math specific goals to working out disagreements with friends on their own first. The emphasis has always been on the positive, and by emphasising the positive the kids have blossomed and been keen to please their teachers.

We have always talked about the feedback from teachers and addressed any concerns or pointers teachers have- however, the constant emphasis what she gets wrong from this teacher's point of view feels relentless at the moment. The constant negative feedback is starting to make my daughter feel like she cannot get anything right, no matter what she tries. To give an example from just yesterday:
Children were asked to continue on a task they were set the previous week, when my daughter had been off sick. She did not understand what needed doing so had walked to the teacher and put her hand up to ask for permission to speak. She was not given a permission to speak but told to go and sit down, which she did and she then waited for quite a while with her hand up in the air. Teacher then came by, and before DD had a chance to say anything, she was already being told off for not having completed the work. When she said that she did not know what to do because she had been away for three days the previous week, and needed information, the teacher continued to tell her off for not working on the sheet.

Funnily enough, @Phineyj I did suggest writing questions or answers on a notepad but no, they are not allowed paper on their desks for doodling. What I am specifically missing is a discussion where my daughter herself is asked for suggestions how she could avoid certain behavior, obviously acceptable to both parties... such as being allowed to write a question down or showing a sign when she has a question/extra information to contribute.

As it happens, we are moving so the children will start in a new school come January so will not be following up on this with the teacher. I just wanted to know, in general, if anyone else has encountered a similar kind of situation, and whether it really always is the child who is in the wrong.

To be honest, learning goals should be related to the learning, not behaviour. It should have some link to the curriculum covered and I can assure you that obeying instructions isn't mentioned in the National Curriculum. 😳😂
However; if she is questioning and even possibly 'backchatting' then it's up to the teacher as the adult in charge of the relationship and professional to manage it.
No child should feel like they are not liked at school. I teach in primary, and yes, sometimes some kids are a little harder to make a connection with. But it is my job to make sure all children are treated equally, or certainly make then feel wanted and successful at school. Children should want to come to school each day. 🤷

This is an interesting thread. From what you’ve written, it sounds as though your daughter has got on very well with her previous teachers. By year 5 the teacher is probably thinking about getting the children ready for SATs and their last year of primary school. Not all those children will be as able as your daughter and she needs the children to concentrate.

Of course, it is possible that the teacher and pupil have a clash of personalities. Teachers are not infallible. This may happen from time to time throughout your daughter’s education and working life.

Out of nosiness, when do you get reports sent home? This may explain a bit more why the teacher has set this goal.

I also wonder what targets the other children have been given.

You expect your daughter to be allowed to “give further information” about incidents that happen in class. Why?

@recrudescence - re: incidents, I mean if there has been a disagreement, I would like her to be able to explain her side or what she has observed, if appropriate.

To my bafflement, my daughter's learning goal for the term was set by the teacher as 'obey all instructions at once, without discussion'. This to me seems like an odd learning goal in a school that has critical thinking as one of their values and for DD, who is hugely enthusiastic about learning, miles ahead of her classmates in reading, writing and doing above expectations in math as well. DD comes with a strong sense of justice and is quick to stand up for any injustice. In addition, she applies critical thinking and evaluates what she is reading for example but it would appear that anything that even vaguely challenges the teacher is not allowed.

I am leaning towards sympathy for the teacher here, tbh.

Is your daughter ‘spirited’?

The example you've given of your DD not having caught up on work she'd missed whilst she was off, leaving her chair to interrupt the teacher and then being impatient whilst waiting for the teacher to finish with the rest of the class before dealing with DD's query doesn't seem to illustrate the teacher's unreasonableness quite as well as I think you believe it does OP.

A more sensible target would be “follow instructions promptly and saves questions to an appropriate moment”.
I would agree with this.
Or "saves appropriate questions for an appropriate moment".

Not all questions are appropriate and much as some on MN threads (not this one) claim their child doesn't have to follow any instruction if the teacher doesn't justify it to their child's liking, it's really not up for debate if the child has to do the work, or follow basic school rules, or reasonable instructions. If 32 students all decided they wanted to query the simplest instructions then no learning would happen.

I've worked with a lot of students with a strong sense of injustice and most of the time it's a lovely quality to have, one thing they have in common is a tendency to decide injustice has occured at times when it hasn't or they haven't got the full facts, or being teenagers they've read the situation wrong and backchatted and argued or got involved in things that don't concern them in that moment. They benefit from someone taking the time to teach them how to use that quality appropriately.

@NorthernStar412 - you said in your OP that it had been witnessed by other parents. What did they say about it?

@prettypurse It was remarked that as my DD had been excitedly chatting to a friend about something as they were getting ready to go out, the teacher had told her to more or less to shut up. The parent, who observed this, said that even though she is a strict parent herself, she felt the tone and the words used were dismissive and rude.

to me it seems like your daughter is a know it all who cant accept what a teacher says without an explanation it reminds me of someone in my class who whenever he got an answer wrong in maths he would challenge the teacher and ask for proof that he was wrong and you make it seem like your daughter getting disciplined for backchatting is preposterous. do you not realise that backchatting to a teacher undermines their authority and belittles her to the other children if she lets your daughter get away with backchating then other children will start to do it as well

it was remarked that as my DD had been excitedly chatting to a friend about something as they were getting ready to go out, the teacher had told her to more or less to shut up. The parent, who observed this, said that even though she is a strict parent herself, she felt the tone and the words used were dismissive and rude.
So I'm guessing that either they were talking when they shouldnt have been or using an inappropriate volume for the situation.

The teacher may well have used a firm tone because by the sounds of it they have probably spent most of their day repeatedly telling your child to quieten down, stop talking, don't backchat etc.

It's worth having a chat with the teacher OP, though as a teacher I would say your posts on here are ticking almost every box under "euphemism for disruptive/noisy/argumentative behaviour".

It increasingly sounds to me like your child is growing up and so at y5 people are rightly expecting behaviour in line with that.

I've seen the secondary school versions of your account. The parent is quick to decide the teacher(s) dislike their child, feel threatened by how bright DC is and want to dent their confidence, that their DC has been given a detention for no reason, doesn't have to do the detention til they've spoken to the teacher and agreed the situation etc. At the extreme end of this approach there's y9-11 students who are apparently in isolation for just asking a question. Apparently.

Have the chat, but be aware that your DC may well need to learn there's a time and a place for loud volumes, getting out her seat, etc