Irish racism in England

[angell84]

I am shocked. I am half English, half Irish. My Irish mum lived in England for a long time, gave birth to us children there with her English husband, and then moved back to Ireland.

The reason that she always gave me for returning to Ireland, was that, "she could not take the nastiness to her anymore". She described one incident of many to me: she went to my brother's primary teacher in England, and said that he had lost something, he must have been six at the time, and the teacher said to her , "sure what do you expect - he is half Irish".

I always thought of it in an abstract way, I never really understood what she meant. Until I spent quite a long time in the U.K this year.

I was absolutely shocked at the hatred and nastiness, and calling Irish people stupid.

How can it be possible? The U.K stole alot of Ireland's land, committed mass genocide during the famine, eradicated the Irish language,

And yet instead of apologising, many people are going around calling Irish people stupid.

Isn't it nearly unbelievable? It would be like a German going up to a Jew and calling them stupid. That it was their fault , thhat everything happened the way it did.

I am really shocked

@LexMitior, I’m going to assume you’re not being deliberately goady. I’m sure that if you think for one moment about how the end of the war of independence, and the signing of the controversial Treaty that made most of Ireland independent but left part of it still inside the UK, was followed by a brutal civil war between Treaty and anti-Treaty sides that ripped the newly-indepependent state apart, AND led directly to the Troubles decades later, you’ll see why Ireland isn’t big on big, unproblematic gestures of independence.

Because remembrance isn’t unproblematic.

Okay, it was a genuine question. I didn’t think so but I didn’t know.

But from what you say, Ireland has its own internal challenges to address in terms of memory. The British have some “good” memories to choose in terms of being a great power etc (let’s set aside whether they are accurate or not).

Ireland would seem not to have that - the reason being it’s oppression. It would seem after independence, it was dominated by the Church. So do you think as Ireland continues to prosper, these feelings of anger wil diminish? You would expect so, given that Britain and Ireland will be separated far more than before in terms of law and culture due to Brexit.

Ireland is thoughtful and sophisticated about remembrance. It has had no choice — we’re nearing the end of the decade of centenaries (commemorating events including women’s suffrage and worker’s rights, Home Rule Bill, the independence struggle, World War 1, war of independence, Treaty, civil war etc. To put it mildly, there are multiple narratives and different ideas about what should be remembered and why.

www.decadeofcentenaries.com/

Ireland and Britain’s mutual memory is really interesting as for the first time in hundred years, Britain will have a more distant relationship with it since independence. That will only grow as our legal systems, political practices and economies diverge. That’s going to be on Brexit and over the next few decades. For structural reasons the demise of Britain is exaggerated. The decision to make polls or referenda rests with Westminster. The Conservatives will be in power for a decade at least. The current relationship is over - which makes me think that the racism is likely to diminish along with the professional, historical knowledge and social links too.

What are you suggesting Lex? That as we become more concerned with present day matters, we'll forget what Britain did?
Don't hold your breath on that.
You ever been to Ireland?

My view on the knowledge of history thing is that it's a top down issue. If it was just the occasional individual being a bit clueless of course we Irish would just roll our eyes.

But it isn't. We've had near daily reminders since the EU referendum that three successive prime ministers and governments didn't have a clue and don't give a shit about it. The way they've played fast and loose with the GFA,a peace treaty their country signed up to in living memory, is frankly disgusting.

That filters down, to the countless posts I've seen on here not realising that NI is part of the UK (why are the DUP in our government all of a sudden??), or that ROI isn't (why do I need international postage to Dublin??). I mean, the countries that make up the UK is pretty basic general knowledge.

Or people scoffing on here about worries Brexit will cause civil war - wouldn't happen, we'll all be terribly British about it. Well, newsflash, the last civil war in the UK only ended 21 years ago with the signing of the GFA and there is every chance peace won't survive a hard Brexit.

So yes, maybe sometimes we seem to overreact to someone being a bit clueless in the pub. But that's not because of one individual or us being oversensitive. It's because it's yet another example of a systemic issue that's been going on for literally centuries.

Maybe if the average British citizen had the slightest clue about the history of our countries (yes, including causing the deaths of over a million people through exporting food in the 1840s - of course we still talk about it, it was one of the single biggest events in our history and the population still hasn't recovered) we wouldn't be in the mess we're in at the minute.

@Mindy I would argue that Ireland isn't in a mess at all. Our Taoiseach is happy that the Withdrawal agreement will pass and is focusing on getting Stormont up and running again. Ireland is in a strong position as a member of the EU and seems to have collectively sighed in relief that finally this Brexit shit is going to be dealt with and we can all get on with our lives. What the Brits get up to is for them to decide.

Also, there won't be a hard border, nor a hard Brexit.

I'll see if I can find the interview.

Here it is in this article.

www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/uk-election-varadkar-warns-against-move-towards-united-ireland-1.4114355

@27Patroclus

I find your attitude towards understanding Irish history very sad. I think it is important for Ireland's neighbour and former ruler to understand the intertwined history, the effects of imperialism etc.

I think it's extremely flippant to refer to the importance of this knowledge, as being on a par with knowledge about the history of any other small European country.

Perhaps you should listen to this:
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0003rj1

No one is suggesting that modern day British citizens take personal responsibility for the actions of previous British generations, however surely it is crucial for modern day British citizens to understand this part of their history as a nation?

@MindyStClaire

Agreed, your post sums it up.

DoTheHop I admire your optimism, and I hope you're right. But, much as I appreciate his stance, Varadkar doesn't actually have the power to prevent Boris pulling the plug. Yes, I agree ROI is an outward looking, European country and will ultimately be ok. But I live in NI these days and we've had sincere conversations about whether we should stay if the Troubles resume.

I would also like to think ROI gives a shit about that (even those who have no wish for reunification) and I think it does in fairness.

Oh, and tagging "Mindy" doesn't tag me since it's not my username, but there's no need to tag me anyway, I'm keeping an eye on the thread when I can (sick toddler).

It is quite good though that the former European Commissioner for agriculture has recently been confirmed as commissioner for trade, which means that the UK will be in negotiations with Phil Hogan, Irish. Karma. 👏👏👏👏

I don’t imagine the Irish will forget - but my point is rather than I see even less chance of a nuanced debate acknowledgment in the future. And that Britain and Ireland despite being neighbours will be diverging on every level - so I would more ignorance not less.

I suppose is, where we are now is a high point. It’s going to decline in terms of understanding each other and Britain is undergoing one of its transformations.

@LexMitior

I don't think the UK and Rebuplic of Ireland will be diverging as simply as that. Their relationship is very different to other EU Member countries. The CTA (common travel agreement) is not changing and both countries have confirmed this.

researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7661

If anything I believe we need to understand our ties with Ireland more than ever. Northern Ireland is continually evolving and not an impossible thought that it could some day become part of ROI. There are provisions for future referendums included in The Good Friday agreement.

Yes but we won’t have common laws either from common law and the EU. ROI and Britain will diverge quickly - and so with it the business. Brexiteers want to deregulate. In a decade the professional links will have eroded also along with immigration changes.

The CTA is useful, but of course will have to be changed once Britain goes to points based immigration. Since Boris has his huge majority, and EU immigration was a big issue, then that has to be regulated.

You have to think that these deals being done are just the start. It’s not as of the guarantees given now by one Government will stand forever.

I also don’t think that the aim for NI will be to have it join ROI. I assume that money will go in to enhance unionism and those areas. So NI may do better under Brexit than you might imagine. Thanks to the deal, you will need a huge amount of infrastructure and spending to make that work. This means employment, jobs, special expertise for NI. More money!

I also don’t think that the aim for NI will be to have it join ROI.

@LexMitior, whose 'aim' are you referring to here? Do you understand who gets a say in this?

I assume that money will go in to enhance unionism and those areas.

Again, whose money are you referring to here?

I agree with @mrsglowglow -- the relationship between the UK and Ireland is very different to the relationship of the UK and any other EU country.

Well do you think Boris Johnson is going to want a united Ireland? I think not. So he will aim to not have that! Yes I know the border poll is how that matter gets changed, but if you think that those conditions will be met over the next decade then much like Scottish independence, you’ll find it’s a no from the politicians who have to work to deliver those conditions. Actually he wants the opposite.

But he does want a deregulated Britain. And Ireland is an EU state. All the historic links won’t mean that much of that won’t change. It is going to change. It wasn’t noticed at the time in 1972 because Britain and Ireland joined the EU at the same time. But now the change is coming. A decade and you will be looking at two places like chalk and cheese.

Well do you think Boris Johnson is going to want a united Ireland? I think not. So he will aim to not have that! Yes I know the border poll is how that matter gets changed, but if you think that those conditions will be met over the next decade then much like Scottish independence, you’ll find it’s a no from the politicians who have to work to deliver those conditions. Actually he wants the opposite

Your blithe assumption that this is somehow Boris Johnson's decision to make, and that other posters on the thread do not have any knowledge of his policies and those of the Tory part, is baffling.

I think times are changing. Look at how many irish voices you hear on TV now for example BBC news presenters etc. There is always the old joke about the irish being daft and the irish jokes. I take them with a pinch of salt and can laugh along with them as of course i find no real malice in them . We all know that the Irish are generally strong family people with good values and hard workers. The Irish built Britain and continue to do so. Sure there are problems with the drink but then that happens in the UK also.

There is always the old joke about the irish being daft and the irish jokes. I take them with a pinch of salt and can laugh along with them as of course i find no real malice in them . We all know that the Irish are generally strong family people with good values and hard workers.

Seriously?

@Fanlights - you assume I’m thinking that’s its Boris’s decision. I don’t think so. But if you read my posts carefully you might work out why.

Britain is striking out on its own: whether that includes NI or not is another matter. He won’t want to foster conditions that support a border poll, but you are very naive to assume that he’s going to be helpful in any way on that front.

Why is so hard to understand that Brexit is not only going to drive us apart but that also, the people behind it aren’t going to have ROI in mind. Once Britain has left, it will be entirely in the opposite direction.

Only in England though. That was only ever an English stereotype.

We dont go to France/Spain/The Netherlands and have to contend with a English stereotype!

England has made itself less powerful. IrelAnd has modernised. Scotland will leave England on its own as soon as possible.

Old stereotypes mean less and less.

Wow. I’m half Irish and have never ever encountered this. I’m 40z

but you are very naive to assume that he’s going to be helpful in any way on that front.

You have misread my post. Perhaps I might suggest you also read a little more carefully. I live in the UK, and lived in London throughout BJ's mayoralty, and as a result am all too well aware of precisely his levels of self-interest, mendacity and political manoeuvring, as well as those of the version of Toryism he represents -- and precisely how little he knows about NI. I am not imagining that he will be in the least 'helpful'. What I am pointing out is that (a) it's not up to him, and that (b) his position on this will be guided largely by self-interest. The Tory party is committed to the union, however it is also aware that the British government pumps a lot of money into NI, which is hardly a vote-catcher for a party which lied merrily about the money to be saved by exiting the EU.

Britain is striking out on its own

That's a very face-saving way of putting it, if I may say so. Wilfully rendering itself less powerful, prosperous and internationally relevant would be another way of putting it.

Why is so hard to understand that Brexit is not only going to drive us apart but that also, the people behind it aren’t going to have ROI in mind.

The people behind Brexit have never had either NI or Ireland in mind, as is entirely plain. If we needed a lesson on general British political illiteracy on NI, I give you a NI secretary who was 'scared' of NI and didn't understand traditional sectarian voting allegiances.