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AIBU?

Irish racism in England

677 replies

angell84 · 13/12/2019 11:22

I am shocked. I am half English, half Irish. My Irish mum lived in England for a long time, gave birth to us children there with her English husband, and then moved back to Ireland.

The reason that she always gave me for returning to Ireland, was that, "she could not take the nastiness to her anymore". She described one incident of many to me: she went to my brother's primary teacher in England, and said that he had lost something, he must have been six at the time, and the teacher said to her , "sure what do you expect - he is half Irish".

I always thought of it in an abstract way, I never really understood what she meant. Until I spent quite a long time in the U.K this year.

I was absolutely shocked at the hatred and nastiness, and calling Irish people stupid.

How can it be possible? The U.K stole alot of Ireland's land, committed mass genocide during the famine, eradicated the Irish language,

And yet instead of apologising, many people are going around calling Irish people stupid.

Isn't it nearly unbelievable? It would be like a German going up to a Jew and calling them stupid. That it was their fault , thhat everything happened the way it did.

I am really shocked

OP posts:
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mrsglowglow · 21/12/2019 09:28

Excellent post @mathanxiety

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MarDhea · 21/12/2019 10:38

👏👏👏 Maith thú, math

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Voila212 · 21/12/2019 11:15

👏👏👏well said mathanxiety

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sue51 · 21/12/2019 11:51

Mathanxiety, amen to all that.

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MindyStClaire · 21/12/2019 11:55

About 99.9999999999999% of the time Irish people are busy making the most of future opportunities and do not give Britain or the British or Northern Ireland a single thought. Then a thread like this pops up to remind Irish people that politicians with responsibility for Northern Ireland are elected by British voters with little or no knowledge of either British or Irish history.

A thousand times this.

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Patroclus · 21/12/2019 18:05

too lazy to repy atm (seriously, im not trying to be rude), coincidentally got an essay on Athenian democracy weirdly enough but its interesting so I'll keep it in mind for later.

But i'll still ask what the point of the Thucydides quote is? you agee with his personal view that to be able to take something means you have the right to do so?

Not arsed if you want to question my credentials.

I think you just guesed that about Wellington and hoped it was correct? It very much isnt.

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Patroclus · 21/12/2019 18:07

BTW history of press gangs and impressment is now widely considered to be a load of old bollocks. It was very rare.

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Patroclus · 21/12/2019 18:10

J. Ross Dancy. The Myth of the Press Gang: Volunteers, Impressment and the Naval Manpower Problem in the Late Eighteenth Century-

academic.oup.com/ahr/article-abstract/121/1/319/2582280

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mathanxiety · 21/12/2019 21:19

i'll still ask what the point of the Thucydides quote is? you agee with his personal view that to be able to take something means you have the right to do so?
It doesn't matter what I think about necessities of state. My point was that the Melian Dialogue has stood the test of time as a reflection point. You have dismissed Thucydides' writings as 'personal opinion' a reductio ad absurdum fully consistent with the rest of your posts here.

My point also relates to the slant of history written by the victors. "The strong do what they have the power to do and the weak accept what they have to accept," applies to propaganda and to history writing as well as what individual states do to each other in military terms. The British imagination created the drunken, brawling, feckless Paddy.

The popular image of the press gang is one that has proved especially durable in the U.S. as well as in Britain. It presents the brutal and violent seizure of men taken from friends and family. Instead, as J. Ross Dancy argues, press gangs were only occasionally violent. He sees them as functioning as part of a system of conscription whose purpose was to select skilled men for naval service. Violence, Dancy claims, was not the primary tool of press gangs

You probably should have read more than just the title, Patroclus.
The quote is from the abstract.

The main debate on press gangs is not whether they existed, but on how much violence was used. Dancy's work does not deny the existence or function of press gangs, nor do any contemporaneous accounts, court cases, political statements or laws passed. In the numerous wars and military adventures of the late 1700s and early 1800s they were particularly notorious in the Atlantic seaports, including those on the American side - from 1775 to 1814 the Navy increased in size and manpower from between 100-200 ships in 1793 to almost 600 in 1812, and with manpower increasing from about 35,000 sailors in 1793 to approx 115,000 in 1812. Impressment was one of the Grievances listed by the Thirteen Colonies. Experienced seamen were targeted in time of war, including seamen in the merchant navy, the British East India fleet, and the American colonies.

Guessed what precisely, about Wellington?
He was a British aristocrat by birth and class loyalty, and an Imperialist who saw the island of his birth as wholly British and the Irish population as scoundrels to be despised and distrusted, a very common opinion of his time. His family belonged to a garrison class.
What exactly in this are you quibbling with?

All of that was gleaned from a recent re-reading of Lawrence James' biography of Wellington, 'The Iron Duke: A Military Biography of Wellington', a copy of which sits in my bookshelves.

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Splodgetastic · 21/12/2019 21:35

I am coming late to this thread, but there is definitely anti-Irish racism in England. I have some Irish in my background from quite a long time ago, which TBH I keep on the down low, apart from my DH, but even he can come up with some spectacular racism, such as (if I go on a long night out), “I bet I can guess that it was the Irish mafia left at the end of the evening”. Plus I get loads of stories about how awful London was in the early nineties because of the Irish terrorism, while I was living a blameless existence in another part of England. I suppose the fact I keep my background quite secret also tells its own tale. I have more background from continental Europe though and, while I might get a bit of a ribbing about some of this, it’s nothing like what English people say about Irish people. FAOD I identify as English.

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pallisers · 21/12/2019 22:12

“I bet I can guess that it was the Irish mafia left at the end of the evening”. Plus I get loads of stories about how awful London was in the early nineties because of the Irish terrorism, while I was living a blameless existence in another part of England.

why on earth do you tolerate this? He is being a bigot. You don't have to admit to your irish heritage (although jesus christ why would you hide it) to tell your husband he is being a bigoted prat so shut up please.

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Deadjinglebellringer · 21/12/2019 22:52

I also would like to know what mathanxiety got wrong about Wellington please Patroclus

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violinrosa · 21/12/2019 23:05

@Splodgetastic this is what I have been dreading - that English people are saying this behind my back. Somehow the Irish descent have ended up with all the blame for what happened during that time. Nice bit of deflection.

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Patroclus · 21/12/2019 23:06

Complete nonsense that Math. I said nothing of the sort about Thucydides, or point it out. Im talking about that sentence itself not the whole of his history. You're making this up as you go along.

The Athenian generals (of whom Thucydides was once one) said this to the Melians to explain why they felt they had the right to invade. You seem to think the Melian dialogue is some cosy political tool that somebody with a degree in ancient history wouldnt know about? Its an excuse for empire building and bizarre in this context. Dont try and patronise me or outread me on Thucydides, because you wont win.

It a book, of which Ive read all? not just an abstract. You seem very sure of what I've read yet are consistently wrong about it. I didnt say it never happened. Press gangs and enforced conscriptions were very rare because funnily enough people dont want untrained, desperate people hanging around ships and military situations. A wage was generally enough. Are you trying to say the 3rd of the british army that was irish at one point was entirely there against its will?

Wellington had an irish accent himself, was often seen in Catholic churches, had no issues with irish 'scoundrels', didnt say the 'born in a stable' thing. He was simply a Protestant irishman. 'Anglo-Irish' is copout nonsense.

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pallisers · 21/12/2019 23:12

The Duke of Wellington: Great Irish Patriot.

Title of my new book.

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mrshoho · 21/12/2019 23:19

Just a simple Irish protestant man. ok!😅

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mathanxiety · 22/12/2019 03:13

'victors write history' is a load of old balls. The most famous of historians, Thucydides, was on the losing side. We have countles german accounts of the war.
Although you denied misunderstanding what this phrase means, looking at this statement of yours again, I suspect you really did take it literally.

That Thucydides quote is in relation to the growth of Athens, who very much lost the war. It was also the personal view of Thucydides over Melos. A personal view is not historical fact
To answer your request - 'point it out' - there ya go.

But i'll still ask what the point of the Thucydides quote is? you agee with his personal view that to be able to take something means you have the right to do so?

Does personal view = personal opinion? Or will you split hairs?

(And fwiw, that wasn't his thesis in the Dialogue. He was addressing the exigencies of war, and outside of war the first and central need of the state, i.e. to maintain power.)

The Athenian generals (of whom Thucydides was once one) said this to the Melians to explain why they felt they had the right to invade. You seem to think the Melian dialogue is some cosy political tool that somebody with a degree in ancient history wouldnt know about?
The Dialogue is a rumination on power in relations among states, not a tool. Thucydides was nowhere near the siege - it is a dramatised version of rational vs irrational responses to conditions of war, in the context of Athenian policy and relations with Melos at the time of the siege, during the wider Peloponnesian War. It's one of the literary(?) foundations of Realpolitik. You should know this.

One of the ironies of WW2 and Irish history is that the existence of NI meant that Britain did not have to invade Ireland, Athenian-style, in order to secure a useful base for Atlantic naval operations.

Wellington had an irish accent himself, was often seen in Catholic churches, had no issues with irish 'scoundrels', didnt say the 'born in a stable' thing. He was simply a Protestant irishman. 'Anglo-Irish' is copout nonsense.
Wellington himself would have taken issue with your assertion that he was 'simply a protestant Irishman'. But he would have agreed that ''Anglo Irish' is copout nonsense'.

I didn't claim he made the 'born in a stable' statement. That was a phrase used about Wellington by Daniel O'Connell, whose opinion it was that though Wellington was born in Ireland he was no friend of Ireland or the Irish, ultimately only concerned with furthering British interests in Ireland.

Wellington's disdain for the Irish and indeed his rejection of even the concept of Irishness is well documented. As far as he was concerned, he was a British aristocrat (not Anglo Irish) holding the line in hostile territory against people who would take any chance they were given to throw Britain out of Ireland, and who felt that the enemy of their enemy was their friend. His policy wrt Ireland as Prime Minister reflects this view of his. Reforms under his administration had the aim of pacifying the sections of Irish society that would provide leadership in any anti-British rebellion, informed by his experiences in India where the iron fist and the velvet glove were equally employed. 'Irish' meant 'untrustworthy' to him, especially in light of Irish hopes of a French army of liberation arriving. He was under no illusions about Ireland - his view was that if the British army was deployed there in the wake of a French invasion, it would be operating in a hostile foreign state.

I didnt say it never happened. Press gangs and enforced conscriptions were very rare because funnily enough people dont want untrained, desperate people hanging around ships and military situations. A wage was generally enough. Are you trying to say the 3rd of the british army that was irish at one point was entirely there against its will?

OK, a few issues here.
1 - Press ganging targeted experienced and skilled sailors on both sides of the Atlantic. The county Quota system produced untrained seamen from the prison population and was unsatisfactory for this reason and because nobody wants typhus spreading on a ship. Press ganging took place in seaports as opposed to inland towns for a reason. (Though cities on rivers were not immune - Quebec for instance.)

2 - Press ganging was done in order to man ships. Not the army.

You seem very sure of what I've read yet are consistently wrong about it. I didnt say it never happened.
You said it was widely considered to be a load of old bollocks. It was very rare. This apparently on the basis of just one book (which I too have read, btw). And I know I quoted from the abstract, which you linked. I mentioned this.

You are in the grips of Balmoralism if you are trying to make a case for enthusiastic Irish martial contribution to the Imperial dream. The army was a means of making a living for the very poor all over the islands of Britain and Ireland. Freedom of choice didn't really exist for a great many soldiers.

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pallisers · 22/12/2019 04:13

Just a simple Irish protestant man. ok!😅

I've heard that Wellington was the inspiration for the character George in Glenroe.

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roisinagusniamh · 22/12/2019 10:21

Never knew that Pallisers
Brilliant !

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Patroclus · 22/12/2019 21:35

Where did I say he was there at the siege? again nonsense.

No point anymore. Youre determined to tell me I said things about Thucydides which I didnt.

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Patroclus · 22/12/2019 21:38

This idea that Wellington hated the irish is a handy myth for those who dont want to confront the cosier parts of Irish involvment in the empire.

Plenty of books, witing and historians have called pressganging bollocks. Assumed you knew that?

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pallisers · 22/12/2019 21:40

Youre determined to tell me I said things about Thucydides which I didnt.

This thread is pure gold.

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mrshoho · 23/12/2019 09:38

@patroclus 'The cosier parts of Irish involvement in the Empire'.

You know yourself at this time Ireland was under British rule. There were plenty Rebellions against the British along the way but it was Britain who 'involved' Ireland in the Empire. Your comment above reads as if Ireland was a separate entity that chose to help Britain and I find it a very weird way of reading history.

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mathanxiety · 23/12/2019 14:39

Patroclus Sun 22-Dec-19 21:35:53

Where did I say he was there at the siege? again nonsense.

I didn't say you said that. This is farcical.

I included the detail that Thucydides was not a participant at the siege to highlight the fact that it's a dramatisation of negotiations/terms offered, an extrapolation from real events in which power dynamics in international relations are set forth.


Plenty of books, witing and historians have called pressganging bollocks. Assumed you knew that?
You like revisionist history when it suits your own purposes, eh?
Nobody has called pressganging 'bollocks'. Several books have disputed the extent of certain elements of pressganging. None have denied it, and rightly because its existence is very well documented. The impressment of c. 15,000 American seamen (removed under force from American merchant vessels) between 1790 and 1812 was one of the reasons cited for the declaration of war on the United Kingdom by the United States in 1812.

The idea that the British establishment and individuals like Wellington were well-disposed toward the Irish and that in turn the Irish were gallant, pipe-skirling, green-wearing, noble savages, tamed at last and giving their all for Queen and country is an example of Balmoralism applied to Ireland.

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Patroclus · 23/12/2019 14:44

'The Dialogue is a rumination on power in relations among states, not a tool. Thucydides was nowhere near the siege -'

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