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The privileged feminist vote

177 replies

Home2018 · 09/12/2019 23:33

So, there have been many conversations about intersectionality, always approached from a theoretical standpoint.

However, I think this GE and the focus of the vast majority of threads referring to the GE on the feminism boards may be a good example to highlight some of the points being made by woc.

For comparison, I was listing to a BBC R4 talk the other day and a young northerner spoke about his vote. The interviewer asked him about Brexit, as they did with all interviewees, and he said that focusing on Brexit in comparison to the NHS, welfare state and education as a low paid father of a disabled child in an underfunded state system was a privilege.

Which, sort of brings me to my point.

Many woc feel that the mainstream feminist narrative is centred on privileged women trying to seek equality alongside privileged men, rather than female allegiance focused on trying to ensure equality for those that need the voices of those more fortunate to level thier even lesser playing field.

In the run up to this GE, in comparison to issues such as the NHS, education for the poorest children in our society - half of them being the least privileged girls, state benefits for the poorest, the disabled, carers (again, most of which are women), racism against all minorities etc, can many on these boards say that thier focus has been on using their vote for the most vulnerable, most in need women? Or, unfortunately, themselves and the quest for equality among two of societies most privileged groups?

Whilst self ID is an extremely important issues which needs to be explored, during an election which literally comes down to protecting the rights of the haves and have nots, is spoiling your vote on an issue which isnt affecting women to the same extent to which issues as above are, as we speak, the true, sisterly, inclusive and non self centred feminist way to go?

I speak as a women whose neighbor's cancer suffering aunt was deported as part of the windrush debacle. She was a woman who devoted her life to caring for others. Men and women included. In an election such as this, do we not stand up for the elderly, less politically and educationally astute? For many of whom this election equals life and death. Or do we make a point?Is self ID and the focus on that the same? Is it more important? Does the suffering of those less able in society even feature?

Or, do you spoil you ballot over this one issue over many others that are here, right now, and the poorest most vulnerable women in society are left to suffer from alone?

Do you vote (or abstain from voting) to make a single point knowing fully well that the party that will win will literally disregard the human rights of societies most vulnerable people.

Disproportionately affecting women as result?

Honest question!

OP posts:
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TreestumpsAndTrampolines · 10/12/2019 10:48

If self-id goes through, it won't be the privileged feminists suffering the most, it will be those working class women, the abused women, the women in prison, vulnerable women in mental health wards, girls in clubs and schools - they're the ones who'll be bearing the brunt of males in their previously single sex spaces.

It's already happening, and if it becomes law, rather than people blindly obeying a policy quietly given to them by men with vested interests in weakening safeguards, then it's going to be 100x harder to get those safeguards back, and protect the people who need their protections.

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FishCanFly · 10/12/2019 10:49

Self-ID concerns goes very much with other concerns, like NHS or education.
NHS has to ration vital services, but offer sex change, splashes money on trans awareness training and leaflets about 'pregnant people', also lawsuits that are about to come.
Also schools, while being decimated, suddenly have all that cash to redesign toilets into gender-neutral?

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OunceOfFlounce · 10/12/2019 10:53

But there will be more vulnerable abused women, more women in prison etc if labour don't get in.

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CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/12/2019 10:54

@TreestumpsAndTrampolines it will be women ALL women.

"Rich women" is fast becoming a perjorative. What IS a rich woman? What kind of woman springs to mind when you read that description?

A rich man's play thing or a successful woman?

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CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/12/2019 10:55

But there will be more vulnerable abused women, more women in prison etc if labour don't get in. And more of them will be men, if Labour do get in.. counter argument!

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BarbaraStrozzi · 10/12/2019 10:57

But Ounce we are in a stupidly polarised debate. We actually have before us a choice of racists as PM - the Labour party genuinely is antisemitic (I base that judgement not on what the right wing press are saying, but on what I've actually heard Labour supporters and politicians say when being interviewed); the leader of the Conservative party talks about "picanninies" and "letterboxes".

My question is how the fuck did a civilised country end up in a situation where our choice is between two different flavours of racism (realistically because Jo Swinson is not going to be PM no matter what deluded soundbites she utters, and the more I hear her being interviewed the more I think "thank god for that" because she's a raving incompetent).

And yes - the extremists are responsible for this - Momentum in the Labour party and the ERG in the Conservative party. They have created a situation where there is no middle ground, where no-one is civilised in political debate any more.

And simple minded posters like OP with their "vote Labour or you are an evil racist" rhetoric must carry part of the responsibility for that polarisation.

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Littlelamp456 · 10/12/2019 10:58

I agree op.

How anyone can put a ‘single sex ward’ as higher importance than access to the ward in the first place is beyond me.

Fighting for refuges that don’t include men is great but refuges are disappearing completely already!

Fighting to not have a man in prison? Fab. But what about the women who are left to give birth alone and abused in the prison system because there is no funding?

Don’t let a boy in my daughters changing room, I agree but keep her school open 5 days a week and able to afford a book for her first!

It’s insanity and I cannot take anyone seriously who genuinely believes this is the most important issue.

86% of the burden of austerity has fallen directly on women’s shoulders.

Do you think the woman who’s sleeping on the streets because she’s escaped her abusive boyfriend is thinking self ID is the biggest issue? Or the one who can’t get legal aid? Or using food banks? Or dying while waiting to be classed as fit for work?

It’s insanity.

Yes self ID is important but ffs women are suffering, children are suffering. Other countries are living with self ID without deaths because of it, austerity is killing people.

Anyone who thinks this is the most important issue needs to get off the internet and step into the real world.

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CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/12/2019 10:58

That!

Thanks Barbara

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Butterisbest · 10/12/2019 10:59

I'll vote the way I want to vote. End of.

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TyroSaysMeow · 10/12/2019 11:03

All the available parties are shit when it comes to self ID. They're all shit on women's rights in their own ways. A degree of holding one's nose is inevitable; there's no 100% pro-women option to vote for.

I reckon it's pro-women to allow us all to vote according to our own consciences without being harangued for it though.

Personally I'm more bothered about mental health services, the Nordic model, universal credit, etc than self-ID because I'm at the bottom of the economic heap and it's a terrifying place to be. Doesn't give me a right to guilt anyone else into voting according to my wishes.

Mind, when it comes to privileged feminists, I note everyone was all for individual taxation back in the day, but individual benefits are never really talked about, despite the problems poor women face as a result of the expectation that A Man will be supporting us.

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CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/12/2019 11:11

Sorry, I am going to pick at that! It isn't THE MOST important issue. It is One of them, and I can fight for more than ONE thing at a time without hesitation.

How anyone can put a ‘single sex ward’ as higher importance than access to the ward in the first place is beyond me. Access to a ward is blocked by mixed sex status all the time. More money is required if you HAVE single sex wards, but more can be saved if you maae them all mixed. Which do you want?

Fighting for refuges that don’t include men is great but refuges are disappearing completely already! Yes, because funding for some has been pulled due to 'lack of inclusivity' aka letting men in. As most are charities, funded by the Lottery, I think we can demand that such institutions stop pratting around with wokeness!

Fighting to not have a man in prison? Fab. But what about the women who are left to give birth alone and abused in the prison system because there is no funding? Fight for unding AND to look again at countries were a rapist is set free and and the child he forced upon a fellow inmate remains in prison with its raped mother. That's a mind set chage, a cultural shift!

Don’t let a boy in my daughters changing room, I agree but keep her school open 5 days a week and able to afford a book for her first! Not sure why we can't do both! Oh, politics, patriarchy! Fight them both!

It’s insanity and I cannot take anyone seriously who genuinely believes this is the most important issue. It is important because it affects EVERY single part of a woman's life. Without surcease! I can fight it and still focus on other issues.

86% of the burden of austerity has fallen directly on women’s shoulders. Yes... patriarchy...

Do you think the woman who’s sleeping on the streets because she’s escaped her abusive boyfriend is thinking self ID is the biggest issue
If one of the issues if she can't go to hospital or a refuge because they allow men into female spaces?

Or the one who can’t get legal aid? Political issue

Or using food banks? How would that happen? I work in one.... can't see how that would happen.

Or dying while waiting to be classed as fit for work? Again politics! We need to change politics, root and branch.

It’s insanity. Yes

Yes self ID is important but ffs women are suffering, children are suffering. Other countries are living with self ID without deaths because of it, austerity is killing people. Again, I can fight more than one bpolitical battle at a time!

Anyone who thinks this is the most important issue needs to get off the internet and step into the real world. Sadly it is waiting for Self ID to hit the real world that wil ensure women's rights are fulley eroided. It is only successful because it is done behind closed doors, Regulatory Capture might have sound like something the tinfoil hat brigade dreamt up, but more and more evidence of it comes to light every day. We cannot ignore it.

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Home2018 · 10/12/2019 11:20

As a sufferer of sexual abuse, I'm sure that my posts haven't referenced male sexual abuse OVER female, if even at all.

I have also not referenced white feminism.

I have often spoken about feminism from a minority standpoint. Something relevant to me.

Thanks to those women who are able to think of others.

The collectivist spirit seems to be lost on the majority unfortunately.

There's nothing more for me to add. This is not a difficult concept to understand.

I beleive history will speak for itself in this case, and when your children ask you why you didnt vote to look after the welfare state, education and healthcare, legal aid etc, when the most vunerable women needed it, and the next generation of women and girls will too, I hope your feminist 'theory' is considered as valuable as your seeming lack of empathy for ALL women, as you self entitled intellectual 'feminists' are supposedly fighting for.

And, this repeated trope that white men bring up intersectionality to save you having to listen to the actual voices of woc is ridiculous. Every minority feminist I know speaks about this.

The voices we tune into aren't as funnelled, perhaps you should question whether you're forming your perspective based on the voices of all women, or just those that look like, and prioritise you. And, might I add, white men, over women of colour.

It's so clear this is not about equality for all, but rather equality for you. You're all just making my point but you won't see it as you answer with 'me, me, me' first, not 'us'.

I hope the conservatives help you on your self ID endeavours. This spoil your vote bollocks has the rest of us laughing. Honestly! At least vote Conservatives and stand by it fgs.

You're just marginalising yourselves in the global movement which is no longer dictated by such a small collection of voices, and you're helping knowone. Least of all yourselves as when you need the wider movement to jump on board to push your causes, history will be used against you.

OP posts:
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OunceOfFlounce · 10/12/2019 11:23

Good for you being able to fight for more than 1 thing at a time. When some people try to talk about issues that concern them it is dismissed as oppression top trumps.

No one (here. I think) is saying self id won't have a massive affect on loads of different areas of society (perhaps everyone's tired of hearing this but I resigned my Labour membership over it which is a big deal to me) just that the cumulative effects of Johnson's hypercapitalism will ultimately do more damage to more people, even to more women.

I understand the debate it is polarised but it makes no sense to me to blame it on woc or working class women saying 'we have our own issues'.

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Littlelamp456 · 10/12/2019 11:24

If you don’t think it’s the most important issue then obviously not referring to you so your post is a bit irrelevant and quite frankly doesn’t make much sense anyway.

I’m talking about the people who are happy to help the tories get in, who have done a great disservice to women, based solely on the fact they are slightly less likely to let self ID in.

In my opinion, that’s ridiculous.

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OunceOfFlounce · 10/12/2019 11:25

My message there was to curious and Barbara. I'm at work on my phone, sorry.

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Littlelamp456 · 10/12/2019 11:28

My above post was to curious

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CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/12/2019 11:28

I resigned my membership over it too. And am now politically homeless.

I have no idea how to vote and OPs like this just make it harder to have a meaningful discussion here.

I'd like to explore certain issues but that becomes impossible, no matter who you are, when posters start in with the emotional blackmail, shouting down, denigrating etc.

I mean seriously, who does this help?

You're just marginalising yourselves in the global movement which is no longer dictated by such a small collection of voices, and you're helping knowone. Least of all yourselves as when you need the wider movement to jump on board to push your causes, history will be used against you.

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CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/12/2019 11:31

Littlelamp456 My apologies, I did say I was going to pick through your post... I was interested in it, wanted to consider the points you made, as some of them made no sense to me either, but I didn't want to simply dismiss them!

Should I just piss off now? Or can we try and change the usual track of such posts....?

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MidnightCircus · 10/12/2019 11:33

So, vote Labour or you're an uncaring, racist, and selfish feminist? Slightly more nuanced than the usual Tory bashing threads, I give you that but it's what this is isn't it?

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CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/12/2019 11:36

I think so, yes!

With a liberal dose of 'not quite true' statements like I have also not referenced white feminism. just to make sure the high ground is retained!

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GCAcademic · 10/12/2019 11:38

And, this repeated trope that white men bring up intersectionality to save you having to listen to the actual voices of woc is ridiculous.

I am a woc. As are many of us on here, and on the feminist board. There isn't a specific woc feminism that you have a monopoly on. We don't all have to think as a monolith because we're not white. Your rhetoric is divisive, patronising and tribal.

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womanaf · 10/12/2019 11:38

Still not sure why you can’t be a feminist without having ‘collective spirit’.

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BarbaraStrozzi · 10/12/2019 11:40

Ounce - similarly I left the Labour party over this.

But the self ID thing is actually broader than just women's rights for me. It's the attempts to criminalise political dissent (see Harry the Owl's judicial review). It's the Lysenkoism of science denial and the introduction of a form of modern day anti blasphemy laws.

We all bring our own personal experience to bear in forming our political opinions. I'm old enough to have visited and made friends with people in Eastern Europe when it was still behind the Iron Curtain. I actually fear left wing authoritarianism as much as I fear right wing authoritarianism.

For me what's at issue is a choice between 5 more years of austerity versus a Labour party which frankly shows authoritarian tendencies which scare the willies out of me and which would last a generation or more.

Both options fill me with despair. As does the "pick which flavour of racism you want" choice.

I repeat - it's a shit show and there is no "good" choice, just an agonizing choice over which one is marginally less shit.

In my case it's all a bit theoretical as my seat is solidly Labour.

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Littlelamp456 · 10/12/2019 11:43

Vote for whoever you want.

The sentiment that anyone is voting conservative because it’s ‘best for women’ is just plain ridiculous to me.

As is the statement that self ID is The most important issue.

It’s shit that there is no one, I for one, actually want to vote for but after 9 years of working with homeless, abused and destitute women, I know that we cannot cope with more of the same and that is why I will vote tactically for anyone who isn’t Tory.

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CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/12/2019 11:47

And mine is solidly Tory! He threw hi hat in the leadership ring

My local Labour candidate has a single issue campaign that doesn't fit the locality.

The Green candidate is wholly focussed on creatures and habitats that only exist here (an ancient forest)

The Lib Dem is invisible, we may not actually have one any more

We have an independent who wants the country ruled by reforenda... hosts of them!

And we have/had another independent candidate that was just a name

I WANT to vote... really I do!

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