My feed
Premium

Please
or
to access all these features

AIBU?

The privileged feminist vote

177 replies

Home2018 · 09/12/2019 23:33

So, there have been many conversations about intersectionality, always approached from a theoretical standpoint.

However, I think this GE and the focus of the vast majority of threads referring to the GE on the feminism boards may be a good example to highlight some of the points being made by woc.

For comparison, I was listing to a BBC R4 talk the other day and a young northerner spoke about his vote. The interviewer asked him about Brexit, as they did with all interviewees, and he said that focusing on Brexit in comparison to the NHS, welfare state and education as a low paid father of a disabled child in an underfunded state system was a privilege.

Which, sort of brings me to my point.

Many woc feel that the mainstream feminist narrative is centred on privileged women trying to seek equality alongside privileged men, rather than female allegiance focused on trying to ensure equality for those that need the voices of those more fortunate to level thier even lesser playing field.

In the run up to this GE, in comparison to issues such as the NHS, education for the poorest children in our society - half of them being the least privileged girls, state benefits for the poorest, the disabled, carers (again, most of which are women), racism against all minorities etc, can many on these boards say that thier focus has been on using their vote for the most vulnerable, most in need women? Or, unfortunately, themselves and the quest for equality among two of societies most privileged groups?

Whilst self ID is an extremely important issues which needs to be explored, during an election which literally comes down to protecting the rights of the haves and have nots, is spoiling your vote on an issue which isnt affecting women to the same extent to which issues as above are, as we speak, the true, sisterly, inclusive and non self centred feminist way to go?

I speak as a women whose neighbor's cancer suffering aunt was deported as part of the windrush debacle. She was a woman who devoted her life to caring for others. Men and women included. In an election such as this, do we not stand up for the elderly, less politically and educationally astute? For many of whom this election equals life and death. Or do we make a point?Is self ID and the focus on that the same? Is it more important? Does the suffering of those less able in society even feature?

Or, do you spoil you ballot over this one issue over many others that are here, right now, and the poorest most vulnerable women in society are left to suffer from alone?

Do you vote (or abstain from voting) to make a single point knowing fully well that the party that will win will literally disregard the human rights of societies most vulnerable people.

Disproportionately affecting women as result?

Honest question!

OP posts:
Report
PencilsInSpace · 10/12/2019 09:54

I'm not campaigning for 'equality' I'm campaigning for women's liberation.

As I said on one of the FWR threads it's worth checking how safe your constituency is. I live in an extremely safe labour seat that voted heavily for remain. Whoever I vote for, whether I turn up or not, a Labour MP will be returned to parliament.

My mum is in a similar position but the other way round - huge tory majority at every election and huge support for leave. Whoever she votes for, whether she turns up or not, a tory MP will be returned to parliament.

We are both spoiling our ballots.

Obviously if our constituencies were more marginal or a swing was expected because of brexit then we'd be considering holding our noses to vote for one of the slightly less evil parties that doesn't know what a woman is.

As things stand though, no, fuck that shit.

Report
MuthaFunka61 · 10/12/2019 09:58

Thanks for putting your point across eloquently @Home2018.

I've gone through feeling angry enough to spoil my paper but then had to think about what the possible effect of doing this is and having another 5 years of Tory rule would look like,and I couldn't bear the thought that I was culpable in any way for this.

I understand that self ID is a potential danger for all women and children,but looking at Labour's manifesto I recognise that there's at least the opportunity for negotiations within the party and as this is an indication that their view is not fixed I'd rather go with this than hope that a spoilt paper will have its desired effect.

Jeremy Corbyn is known for having proven negotiating skills and I think that Labour's policy around the complex Brexit situation is the fairest all round.

My conclusion is that I can't find a reason not to vote Labour to help get this country out of the mess it's in so I'll be voting on Thursday and willing others to do the same.

Report
Andysbestadventure · 10/12/2019 09:59

I'm a feminist/equalitarian primarily for my own benefit and that of any female children or younger relatives I may have. I have no issue stating that. For me it is not about 'the cause' or the plight of others, it's about enabling me to be the best I can be unhindered.

If other people want change then they should fight their own little corner and sure, we'll all meet for a chat on the way up, compare notes, exchange ideas, but it is not my responsibility to find that ladder on their behalf.

Do I give a fuck what people like the OP think? 🤷‍♀️ Nah. Fight your own battles instead of expecting others to lift you to their level.

Report
PencilsInSpace · 10/12/2019 09:59

What about the solidarity with your letterbox sisters, of single mothers, carers, this rasint disabled children, or the disabled? Piccanannies even?

What the fuck?

Report
OunceOfFlounce · 10/12/2019 10:02

Women of colour aren't saying consider everyone else ahead of yourselves, but please also consider other women who have had less opportunities than you. Or women dealing with different problems and facing additional barriers (1 tiny example - even when black women get a degree they still earn less than their white counterparts).

I know you are disadvantaged too, and pointing out any privilege that eg white women have over woc is going to be called 'the oppression olymipcs' so it hardly feels worth the argument. Btw it strikes me that's a similar argument working class/ disadvantaged men make against the idea that there even is patriarchy (I'm the bottom of the heap, don't tell me you have it worse').

I know you all hate to hear it but its alienating to have these concerns dismissed as disingenuous.

Report
CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/12/2019 10:05

So we have to play Discrimination Top Trumps before we speak or post?

Who does that?

The Oppression Olympics is a vile calumny to visit upon anyone. Weaponising discrimination should be pointed at and vilified whenever it happens? I am pointing at the increasingly obvious undercurrent in OPs post!

Report
CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/12/2019 10:07

I know you all hate to hear it but its alienating to have these concerns dismissed as disingenuous.

I know you may not hear it but that is what many posters, black, white, young, old have been saying to crap like the OP!

Wew don't need another post aimned at separating us, we need to just discuss the issue, leaving ego's at the door!

Report
wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 10/12/2019 10:07

Screw equality, I want liberation from the patriarchy for all women.

Goady thread.

Report
BeyondVotesForFlube · 10/12/2019 10:07

B

A

M

E

!!

Btw, I did say in FWR that I'm voting labour as I'm disabled and blah blah blah, so agree on one level. Difference is, I don't presume to tell others how to vote

Report
Leighhalfpennysthigh · 10/12/2019 10:12

I think you, like many others, are underestimating women's capacity to think more than one thing at a time.

This.
It is actually really degrading to all women when politicians of all parties separate "women's issues" from issues affecting the whole of society some of whom happen to be women. I even include the WEP in this (where are they now?) - i read through their manifesto and saw that it was all about children, childcare, maternity.....aren't these also issues that affect men? And, as a childless woman, aren't I seen as a woman by the WEP?

Sorry for the waffle - I'm on a soapbox today and avoiding doing the rotas

Report
powershowerforanhour · 10/12/2019 10:13

I'm torn on this. On one hand, this:
there’s just so much more at stake than women’s rights and we just have until Thursday to do the right thing for education, the NHS, the homeless and disabled and sick people
always seems to happen- discuss all you like about women but when push comes to shove we are expected to put our own concerns last. Yes I know women are affected by NHS changes etc more but you know what I mean. When are women's rights ever, ever going to get a turn to be the most important thing under consideration? Even though we are over 50% of the population?

With regards to self ID though- I wouldn't trust the Conservative position on this as far as I could throw their leader. It's the cheapest horse to trade, the easiest sop to throw- "Right so biological females still won't be able to join the Freemasons or get their pretty little hands on hereditary peerages? OK liberal woketypes you can have that as a wee dog biscuit, we don't give a fuck".
Any promises to women are going to be the first thing ripped up and thrown under the bus.

Report
OunceOfFlounce · 10/12/2019 10:15

I'm not hoping to separate anyone. I feel like I've been separated out already by being ignored. I don't usually engage anymore. My point about speaking up being dismissed with 'oppression olympics' was immediately proved. I don't think this is ever going to be constructive.

Report
PencilsInSpace · 10/12/2019 10:15

WEP don't know what a woman is either Leigh. Chocolate teapot party.

They have been quiet this election though, haven't they?

Report
BarbaraStrozzi · 10/12/2019 10:17

The offensive claims about being on board with calling people "letterboxes and piccaninnies" is the false dichotomy thing, isn't it, Pencils. This idea that if you don't hold your nose and vote Labour then you must clearly be an evil person who has every single article Boris ever wrote for the Torygraph tattooed somewhere on your body..

Frankly, it's that sort of infantile, polarised attitude to politics that got us into the current shitshow where all the parties are so shite politics has come down to voting for the one you think may, by a slim margin, do least damage. (And I include Major and Blair's "vote for a hung parliament" advice in that - how anyone can look at the fucking chaos of the last few years of minority government and think that's "least worst" escapes me.)

And OP, you are part of the problem. Refusing to admit that other people can have different political views for sincere and genuine reasons, painting your opponents as bigots and racists, reducing political debate to simple minded rants about virtue versus evil... It's people like you who have polarised the debate and landed us in this fucking shit show.

Report
PencilsInSpace · 10/12/2019 10:19

It's people like you who have polarised the debate and landed us in this fucking shit show.

Yes.

Report
OunceOfFlounce · 10/12/2019 10:21

Did op say not voting Labour meant you endorsed Boris Johnson's racist comments, or that if they really offended you they would be a red line - as important to you as self is?

Report
BovaryX · 10/12/2019 10:21

To the OP, you don’t get to dictate to anyone how they vote. There are millions of women who are voting Conservative for myriad reasons. You don’t get to demonise those voters either. You don’t get to lecture and finger wag because in a democracy, people have the freedom to vote or spoil their ballot if they chose. If you want to vote Labour? Go right ahead. Millions of us are planning to do something else.

Report
CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/12/2019 10:23

I feel like I've been separated out already by being ignored. By posters here or in RL?

I don't usually engage anymore. My point about speaking up being dismissed with 'oppression olympics' was immediately proved. I don't think this is ever going to be constructive. But as both 'sides' say the same thing there is something going wrong in basic communication, and that really pisses me off. We all get silenced!

From my perspective it is impossible to have any conversation, as I am a white woman. No matter who I am talking to, no matter how informative and pleasant the conversation, someone will come along and shut me down, forcefully, usually including a phrase like "because you are white". So even when you have a white woman willing to discuss the differences in perspective, to exchange beliefs, thoughts and opinions, the conversation gets closed down.

Racism, disablims, ageism, all isms , al theards on tsuch tpics end up much the same. Those with the most entrenched views shout loudest and stifle debate!

Report
OunceOfFlounce · 10/12/2019 10:28

Yes, I can definitely see that some people do try to shut down any debate by using race. I've come to find the term white women really unpleasant because it now reeks of misogyny to me.

But that's not to say the feminism I'm seeing here seems concerned about how race affects women's lives. I've not seen an awful lot of pleasant conversation, even just on this thread. I've seen basically:

'It's people like you who have polarised the debate and landed us in this fucking shit show.

Yes.'

Report
TowelNumber42 · 10/12/2019 10:34

Self ID hurts vulnerable women much much more than it hurts rich white women. Thus I have no faith in any party claiming to be protectors of the vulnerable while also promoting self id. It shows they don't really care about the vulnerable if they are women.

Report
CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/12/2019 10:36

Self ID hurts vulnerable women much much more than it hurts rich white women. anyone else

Or do you just want to prolong this in fighting?

Report
YetAnotherSpartacus · 10/12/2019 10:36

Personally, I can't see a way out of multiple messes. I don't think voting Labour will solve anything for anyone. I'd not vote Tory anyway, and certainly not with BJ at the helm and the minor parties will just split the left vote. It's a mess. No one electable is really 'remain', 'pro-woman' and for the disadvantaged and I'm not sure it is possible to separate these out, they are interdependent and not separate.

Report

Don’t want to miss threads like this?

Weekly

Sign up to our weekly round up and get all the best threads sent straight to your inbox!

Log in to update your newsletter preferences.

You've subscribed!

CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/12/2019 10:40

No one electable is really 'remain', 'pro-woman' and for the disadvantaged and I'm not sure it is possible to separate these out, they are interdependent and not separate. On the flip side, just to show how shit it is, there is no no one electable who is Leave, pro-women, for disadvantage etc either.

But stirring up hatred between women is NOT the way forward.

Report
GCAcademic · 10/12/2019 10:41

Yes, I can definitely see that some people do try to shut down any debate by using race. I've come to find the term white women really unpleasant because it now reeks of misogyny to me.

Yes, it seems to be predominantly white men who use the term.

Report
TowelNumber42 · 10/12/2019 10:45

Good point CuriousaboutSamphire. I can't believe I fell for a distraction scam Blush

Report
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.