To think racism is should not be excused based on intent?

[soph7777]

My DH honestly thinks that the basis for assessing racism is purely ones intent as opposed to what they actually said or their actions. And if they didn't intend to be racist then they should be let off the hook.

This concerns me deeply. If this was everyone's attitude, that means we could all go around saying whatever we like about whoever we like and never take responsibility for our actions. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I guess we can apply the same principle to sexism etc but I mention race purely because we we having a conversation about race that lead to this debate.

What do people think? He has me doubting myself thinking I am going mental.

To a reasonable extent I agree with your dh.

If someone accidentally ran someone over and killed them (no drink or dangerous driving involved) then you’d not charge them with murder, would you? Because there was no intent.

That doesn’t mean of course that people using outdated/offensive language shouldn’t be corrected. But ‘let off the hook’ implies you think they should be punished which I don’t this is often appropriate.

I agree but it would be manslaughter and there would still be a punishment for it. You wouldn't be let off the hook? Or else we would all go driving silly speed and never face any consequences?

I understand what your husband is saying however the argument that “I wasn’t intending to me racist” is used so often by actual racists.

Maybe someone wouldn’t call themselves racist but by saying certain things, they are exposing their internal racism. iyswim.

It’s like calling black people primates. Sure you can argue that you didn’t know the history behind it but at the end of the day internally you believe black people are primates which says a lot about ur view on black people. Just an example.

I'll rephrase 'let off the hook' to 'excused'.

And similar to your example should be dealt differently to someone who had the intention yes, but these incidents still need to be called out, or else people just go around doing and saying what they want without considering the impact.

In addition, not knowing saying/doing something is racist doesn’t mitigate the fact that what you did/said is racist and hurts people. It just perhaps would make you ignorant rather than a prejudiced person. You still have to face up to the consequences of ur actions.

This is a complex question. It depends on what is said and why it is said. You can be racist without believing you are a racist, and you can say something others might consider racist without being a racist.

@Plaintainchipss@ that was a very strange example to use considering all human beings are primates.

YABU. Intent is hugely important when someone has done ANYTHING wrong. There’s an enormous difference between lack of education/mistakes which can were genuinely a result of ignorance or purely accidental, and doing something deliberately and maliciously.

It depends on how wilful the ignorance is.

@churchandstate@ I agree with you.

OP your DH is wrong in my opinion because saying ‘I didn’t meant to be racist’ could be a defence used by someone who is genuinely racist or someone who isn’t. How would you be able to tell the difference.

Also I don’t want to assume your husbands race but it is very easy for someone who has never been subject to racism to say that if someone didn’t mean to be racist, then they should be excused.

My Old neighbours used what are viewed as very outdated (racist) words/phrases.
The woman was white British and the man was from Jamaica originally. They used words that would now be completely unacceptable.
It was weird listening to them chat away - laughing their heads off.
Some of the things they said to each other would make your toes curl! They got on like a house on fire!

@EleanorShellstrop100 yes I agree but it doesn't mean that when someone does something without intent that the behaviour should be ignored and the person not even corrected. Maybe there should be no punishment but there shouldn't be a complete lack of acknowledgement and denial. Which is what DH did.

He refused to acknowledge that he can say something racially inappropriate, admit it and learn from it. His reaction was anger and complete denial.

It depends entirely on the situation.

I witnessed someone recently refer to a person as nitty gritty, I genuinely don’t think they realised how racist they were being.

As a child where I lived if you were short changed etc people would say “you’ve jewed me” I as a non-native english speaker thought it was actually “you’ve dued me” as in I’m due more change. Until someone actually pointed it out when I was in my late teens I didn’t actually realise the ‘correct’ word was jew rather than due.

I get called coloured sometimes, I always correct them, it’s easy to tell who is simply a bit ignorant (as I was with due/jew) and who is racist.

but it would be manslaughter and there would still be a punishment for it. You wouldn't be let off the hook? Or else we would all go driving silly speed and never face any consequences?

But that’s just not true.

There are many, many road deaths that go completely ‘unpunished’. Sometimes accidents happen and the driver kills someone with no wrong doing. Plenty of ‘car killers’ are not charged and rightfully so.

My 89 year old G-Aunt persists in calling her stand in carer ‘that nice negro lady’.

Racist as fuck. She has dementia. You can correct her as much as you like, she’ll have forgotten it’s wrong within 5 minutes. She doesn’t intend to be racist - she’s just an old lady using language that was acceptable in her youth.

How would you propose society punishes her?

Can I be clear, I'm not suggesting very racially inappropriate statement or action deserves punishment.

What I'm saying is that when it is called out, acceptance, acknowledgment and agreement to learn from it should be the reaction, NOT defends and denial.

That's all I'm saying.

Is your husband white? If he were another race, he may have a very different view.

I’m white, so don’t get much racism against me, but I feel infuriated by casual sexism. Then when you call someone on it you get the hurt “I didn’t mean that!”. But you would never have said it, if you weren’t coming from a position of feeling that women were “lesser” in some way.

Certainly the law does not ascribe moral culpability without the person having a guilty mind, as well as committing a guilty act (mens rea and actus reus). I think that's generally the correct approach.

The law does allow the lower-threshold requirement of recklessness to makes up the guilty-mind element though, not just intention.

@weaselwords DH is white. And I agree with your point totally.

It depends I suppose. Although I think it is totally right that If people use racially offensive terminology etc they should be called out regardless of what they intended.

Eg recently a footballer Bernardo Silva tweeted a picture comparing his black team mate to a black cartoon character. Supposedly, no harm was meant, his mate found it funny and wasn’t offended. But to so many black people it was a racist image so the fact he may not have intended that doesn’t make it ok. It was (in my opinion) very ignorant whatever the intention.

On the other hand, I don’t subscribe to the view that because someone is accused of racism they are automatically racist whatever their intention eg when David Lammy said someone was racist for tweeting about black and white smoke when the new pope was being decided.

The word “coloured” is actually a good example of what I mean. It is often used without thought or intention of offence, by people with no apparent racist sentiment, who simply haven’t given thought to the term in many years. On the other hand, I have also heard the term - and called it out - used by people who, in my view, have no excuse, and have been sufficiently exposed to the idea that it is an offensive word to have opportunity to change it; they just don’t care.

I do agree with your DH mostly, but your latest post is also close to my thinking.
Unfortunately, our current language contains popularly used words and phrases which are derogatory to those of a different race or culture, or those less able, and many will use them without thinking or realising.
In those circumstances, I don't think punishment is necessarily right, however at the same time calling it out is appropriate and the response should be an apology rather than defensiveness.

Having never been subjected to racism, it's not my decision, but comparing it to sexism, ableism etc, which I am subject to, I'd say the difference is down to whether (1) any reasonable person could be expected to know it was racist/ableist etc, and (2) the reaction to being told it was inappropriate.

If someone is genuinely mortified they've said something that is considered racist, apologises sincerely and wants to learn so they can avoid similar incidents in the future, then I'd assume it was ignorance and wouldn't hold it against them.

If someone comes back with a dismissive comment, 'over-sensitive', 'well it was fine to say that when I was younger' etc, then they clearly don't care about the feelings of the other person. Then I would class them as racist/ableist even if they themselves didn't think they were.

Examples?