To think racism is should not be excused based on intent?

[soph7777]

My DH honestly thinks that the basis for assessing racism is purely ones intent as opposed to what they actually said or their actions. And if they didn't intend to be racist then they should be let off the hook.

This concerns me deeply. If this was everyone's attitude, that means we could all go around saying whatever we like about whoever we like and never take responsibility for our actions. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I guess we can apply the same principle to sexism etc but I mention race purely because we we having a conversation about race that lead to this debate.

What do people think? He has me doubting myself thinking I am going mental.

Never do so many mumsnetters have black best friends than on a thread about racism.

@whereishappyat ‘Coloured’ is considered racist because when segregation was going on in the US they had signs saying ‘coloured bathrooms’ ‘no coloureds allowed’ etc.
Yes it is offensive, pleas do not say it, I would be offended if you said it to me. If someone is black you can say they are black and nowadays most people are more comfortable with ‘mixed race’ instead of ‘half cast’ as the ‘cast’ has racist connotations.

Really? Without a further thought?

That fully explains the current issues around the erosion of women's rights.

@BertrandRussell exactly, very convenient that everyone has a black best friend on these friend who lets the poster say all types of racist things to them.

If a man ‘women belong in the kitchen’. And defended myself by saying, ‘when I was younger we were allowed to say it’ ‘I didn’t mean to cause offence’ ‘my wife lets me say that to her’ and posted it on MN then you would hardly say a poster saying that they must be ignorant and they didn’t have bad intent so they should be let off.

Well I can't claim to have a black best friend, but I am friendly with a couple of black people that I've known since my school days and yes they find the term 'coloured' racist.

However, they also find the term 'people of colour' racist and also dislike the term 'BAME', which are, apparently, the preferred terms these days. This is where things become difficult as there seems to be a generational divide. We are in our 40s. They prefer to be referred to as black. Other younger people seem to feel differently.

@jesusmaryandjosepheen thank you for being a voice of reason on this thread.

The majority of the time someone will say what a person has said is racist is because the words or phrasing they have used are racist or have been used to demean or degrade people in the past.

People come on here and claim that PC culture has gone while and everything is called racist nowadays which is just not true.

Exemplified by the previous poster who for some reason thought calling someone black is racist?

Whereas calling someone coloured is racist terminology due to the aforementioned reasons. Some people may be ignorant about the way the word was used in the past so that’s fine but if they have been educated on it and then still continue to use it then I would say they were being racist yes.

It’s not just intent that matters, it is also wilful ignorance and claiming that they don’t see why the word should cause offence.

@ArnoldWhatshisknickers interesting point from your friends about POC (people of colour) and BAME. A lot of people I know dislike this phrasing as it groups all ethnic minorities together even though the level of discrimination they face can be different.

I.e someone do East Asian descent would be included in POC and BAME but it is arguable that they face less discrimination in the UK than those with darker skin tones of Southeast asian or African descent.

Well I think there is a difference between saying you are a racist and you said a racist thing. I think their are groups of people we can be certain are simply racists, end of. But society has racism baked in and we all have that influence on our own behaviours and words.

If your mum says 'my new neighbour is a lovely coloured lady', you wouldn't kick her up and down the street shouting 'racist, racist, confess your sins!' but you might say people usually say black people these days, mum. I know back in the day saying 'coloured' was being polite and respectful and it doesn't seem like a big difference but you wouldn't want to make your lovely new neighbour feel uncomfortable so maybe try to say that in future rather than 'coloured'.

I don't think we should be castigating people as racist because they are not caught up with the cutting edge in anti-racist thinking, that one personally learnt about all of 3 months ago.

My DH honestly thinks that the basis for assessing racism is purely ones intent as opposed to what they actually said or their actions. And if they didn't intend to be racist then they should be let off the hook.

Well people can be racist or any other thing without consciously realising it.

There are plenty of people on here who express prejudiced statements against trans people and transgenderism without probably realising that that is what they are doing.

Intent matters in terms of assessing how "bad" what someone did was. Being ignorant is being ignorant. Being malicious is being malicious.

But then of course there can be major disputes in what is racist before we get onto intent.

Someone mentioned the word queer as used with its original meaning.

That sort of thing I wouldn't call homophobic. It isn't enough that some people might get offended because something you've said reminds them of something offensive.

I think intent is key when it comes to racism/sexism/homophobia so I agree with your husband.

Using 'incorrect' or outdated language is only racist if it is intended to belittle, discriminate or cause offence.

In the example given earlier when an elderly lady called her carer a "nice negro lady", whilst most people wouldn't use the word 'negro' today, it wasn't used to offend, undermine or discriminate. I would therefore conclude there is no racism as there were no racist or malicious intentions.

If you described someone as "that bloody negro next door" then that's racist statement as the word negro is being used maliciously as a negative adjective.

I think intent is FAR more important than the words used.

Are there? I don't believe so. Standing up and having one's voice heard and asserting women's right to their biological identity, exclusive of men is not prejudice. Nor is asserting the rights of women and girls to sex-protected spaces free from men. Nor is stating that women's sport should exclude men.

It's as if there is a prepared scripted response :) List a bunch of stuff that wasn't particularly being referred to, and since those itens are arguably not prejudiced then ergo there is no prejudice against trans people on Mumsnet QED.

But you are not refuting a claim of transphobia or prejudice by carefully selecting a few examples and saying that they aren't this.

Examples of the sorts of things I do say are prejudice were given on the "to wonder why parts of Mumsnet are so intolerant" thread.

I was going to include an example from that very thread where a poster basically equated transgenderism to 'a bunch of deluded men with a sexual fetish' but that post seems to have been removed.

My DF always maintained he wasn’t racist. So I guess he had no intent to be racist. But he was. Like really really racist. I can’t even write down the sort of things he thought acceptable because they were jokes.

@PBo83 nobody has used the word ‘negro’ on this thread except you. You have misread the previous posters post. They wrote ‘ the coloured lass’.

I think it’s very difficult in this day and age to not know the word ‘negro’ is racist.

*This struck me though "I also feel he is not invested in issues or any issues that disadvantage minority groups. He doesn't seem to care."

I hate this kind of thinking. Must I care about absolutely every bloody thing on the planet because I'm from an ethnic minority?*

As my DH is married to me and I'm not white then it would be nice if he was invested, yes as it's a fundamental part of who I am. And if we are to have children together, I would want him to have a good understanding of the culture to provide a safe and sound environment for the children to grow up in.

If I was with a other person of a different race or culture then I would try and invest in it, like I do with his culture.

I have no idea where some people are getting the idea calling someone black is racist and it's becoming too difficult to keep up with all the changes of how to refer to people.

Here are some clear examples of racism;

I overheard someone at a meal I was at the other day refer to the chines restaurant as the chinky place. That's racist

Someone told me to my face they think all black men are aggressive and violent. That's racist

Calling someone the n* word. That's racist

It's common bleeding sense. Problem is, when I called out all of the above incidents (which did happen btw) I was still made to be the and person. That's the problem with racism no matter what the situation is the victim usually ALWAYS comes out the villain.

My DF always maintained he wasn’t racist. So I guess he had no intent to be racist. But he was. Like really really racist. I can’t even write down the sort of things he thought acceptable because they were jokes.

Exactly my point

@PBo83 nobody has used the word ‘negro’ on this thread except you. You have misread the previous posters post. They wrote ‘ the coloured lass’. I think it’s very difficult in this day and age to not know the word ‘negro’ is racist

No, she hasn’t misread ...I used the term negro earlier in the thread. I have an elderly relative who refers to ‘the nice negro lady’.

She’s not racist as she uses the term ‘negro’ without malice or awareness. She’s an old lady with dementia and not capable of being ‘taught’ different.