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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think racism is should not be excused based on intent?

124 replies

soph7777 · 08/12/2019 11:10

My DH honestly thinks that the basis for assessing racism is purely ones intent as opposed to what they actually said or their actions. And if they didn't intend to be racist then they should be let off the hook.

This concerns me deeply. If this was everyone's attitude, that means we could all go around saying whatever we like about whoever we like and never take responsibility for our actions. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I guess we can apply the same principle to sexism etc but I mention race purely because we we having a conversation about race that lead to this debate.

What do people think? He has me doubting myself thinking I am going mental.

OP posts:
Thelnebriati · 08/12/2019 21:36

NailsNeedDoing Did you mean to miss the first line of my post? OP's DH is arguing and has her doubting her sanity.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 08/12/2019 23:00

If you accidentally say something racist without realising it, somebody tells you and you never say it again, then that’s fine. Carrying on saying it while protesting loudly that “you didn’t mean to offend” - not fine.

Not wanting to rehash another recent thread entirely, but along with words which all but the most blinkered/nasty know are always grossly offensive, there are plenty of words that can be offensive or very ordinary, depending on the context.

Who is the arbiter of what is or isn't racist? If I were to order a black coffee (which some sorts have gone on record as having claimed to be intentionally racist) - or point out a rainbow-design hat to a shop assistant next to some plain ones and say "No, I'd like the coloured one, please" - and 'protest' that I didn't mean to offend, because there clearly was never any offence meant or implied, other than that which may be picked up by some woke perpetually-offended person constantly on the look-out for a self-righteous virtue-fight - does that mean it's 'not fine' if I don't curtail my ordinary, commonly-used absolutely-not-racist/sexist/homophobic etc vocabulary to suit the whims of a fantasist who deems it to be so?

In the recent thread, the OP asked if she was wrong to use the word 'queer' in its original context. I added my contributions throughout the thread to the effect of that it's a normal word, which is part of my normal vocabulary, and I mean no intent whatsoever when naturally using it to refer to an object or a situation. I would never use it to refer to a person, as I know it's also used as an insult aimed at homosexuals; and it's not a particularly kind word to use in general of a person, regardless - but I don't see why I should have to restrict my own natural language, when not even addressing or referring to an actual person.

The general consensus was that, by naturally saying to myself "Hmm, that's queer - I'm sure I left my phone here", that somehow made me a terrible homophobe on the offensive. It's bizarre: the word 'fruit' has been used as an insult to homosexuals too, but I don't hear anybody clamouring to condemn somebody commenting on the lovely apples, oranges and bananas they've just bought as intentionally using hate speech.

I was told by people that, because they only knew the relatively modern minority meaning of 'queer' as a slur on somebody's sexual orientation, that clearly meant that I was being provocative and "You know what you're doing, but you crack on with it, eh."

Absolutely yes to words that are only ever (or frequently) used with the clear intention (or effect) of offending, upsetting or wounding; but we need to beware of allowing people to be self-appointed judges of our intentions when they have no right, knowledge nor mandate to do so.

There are people out there who are either fully self-absorbed and entitled or simply activist trolls, who have nothing better to dedicate their lives to than to seek out offence in every single corner and denounce other people for 'deliberately' causing it, whether by commission or omission. They're seeking a fight and, if you capitulate to them, they see that as a clear admission of deliberate guilt and never stop pushing to restrict other people's normal use of language more and more.

Don't misunderstand me: I hate racism (and other negative isms) and I would always do whatever I could to avoid potentially upsetting somebody; but I also dislike professional offence-hunters. No objection whatsoever to raising a concern with or challenging somebody and explaining what they might not have realised (I would certainly do this myself), but we need to guard strongly against people who think that they have a right to single-handedly manipulate universal language used by hundreds of millions of people and tell others that they are indefensibly wrong for thinking, acting or speaking differently from how they themselves do.

BertrandRussell · 08/12/2019 23:03

You find me an example of somebody being called racist for asking for black coffee or for a coloured hat and we’ll talk.

ItsGoingTibiaK · 08/12/2019 23:50

@SimonJT

I witnessed someone recently refer to a person as nitty gritty, I genuinely don’t think they realised how racist they were being.

Do you mean not racist at all? Can you please signpost me to any actual evidence that 'nitty gritty' has a racist meaning? Because there certainly isn't any evidence that it refers to the bottom of slave ships, or that it has any connection to slaves at all.

BertrandRussell · 09/12/2019 00:28

“I witnessed someone recently refer to a person as nitty gritty, I genuinely don’t think they realised how racist they were being.“
I’d quite like to see a few more details of this too......

gamerwidow · 09/12/2019 09:58

Nitty gritty not racist and doesn’t refer to slave ships. It didn’t even appear in print until the 1930s and was probably derived from hep cat slang.
www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/nitty-gritty.html

BlaueLagune · 09/12/2019 10:01

My DH honestly thinks that the basis for assessing racism is purely ones intent as opposed to what they actually said or their actions. And if they didn't intend to be racist then they should be let off the hook

I agree with this. People talk about privilege without thinking of their own educational and social privilege. If people don't understand a particular expression is racist (and it's not blindingly obvious it's racist), educate them and move on. Don't assume everyone "should know".

In my view is absolutely does matter whether someone intended to be racist or not.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 09/12/2019 10:12

All of that is why presuming 'guilt' of any sort is dangerous.

There are so many changes, misunderstandings and repurposing of words. Language is now especially fluid, social media drives a lot of change.

Add that to the 'fake news' phenomenon and everyone could be accused of anything with little come back... see Elon Musk - who must really think he is above the law if he reckons his interpretation of 'pedo guy' is in anyway believable or acceptable! I actually can't believe he won!

NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace · 09/12/2019 11:12

@WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll

Beautifully put. Thank you Smile

SheOfManyNames · 09/12/2019 11:17

I kind of agree with him.
There is a difference between something said in ignorance (not understanding the context/history of a word, maybe) and something used knowingly to hurt.
Neither is acceptable, of course, but the first person can be educated if they are willing, the second can't really be helped.

AutumnRose1 · 09/12/2019 11:25

your OP is pretty useless without any context or even a related example.

This struck me though "I also feel he is not invested in issues or any issues that disadvantage minority groups. He doesn't seem to care."

I hate this kind of thinking. Must I care about absolutely every bloody thing on the planet because I'm from an ethnic minority?

AutumnRose1 · 09/12/2019 11:26

oh wait, no....if I was white, I'd be expected to care about every bloody thing on the planet.

BuckingFrolics · 09/12/2019 12:15

If it's the workplace, intent regarding racial abuse is not considered in the ACAS code

ConkerGame · 09/12/2019 12:31

I think it depends what you mean by “excused”. There is no point in shouting at someone/having a go at them if they genuinely didn’t realise they were being racist - all that will achieve is them getting defensive.

However it should definitely be pointed out to them in a calm, non-accusatory manner so that they can know and do better in future. Much more positive outcome for everyone.

strawberrieshortcake · 09/12/2019 13:26

It is really easy for people who have never been racially discriminated against to say that you should correct people in a calm respectable manner.

If this is something that has happened to you regularly since the day you were born it is hard at times to do this. I honestly find it irritating that people who have never been racially discriminated against go around telling people who have been how to react when it happens.

Same as a man saying a woman should be meek and calm when she is discriminated against for her gender.

AutumnRose1 · 09/12/2019 13:41

@strawberrieshortcake

I took those people as meaning that's how the OP should talk to her husband, not that it's how anyone should react when they have a racist remark directed at them.

I tend to just stay quiet tbh.

WhateverHappenedToMe · 09/12/2019 13:52

I can see where your DH is coming from.

Imagine six women sharing an office, and someone enters and says they need to speak to Clare but don't know which person she is. I wouldn't think it was racist to say "She's the black lady over there" as that's descriptive and not derogatory, and may be much easier than saying "the one with the blue blouse and grey skirt - not the blue blouse and black skirt".

strawberrieshortcake · 09/12/2019 13:55

@WhateverHappenedtoMe Saying someone is black is not racist so I have no idea what your hypothetical even means.

whereishappyat · 09/12/2019 14:15

I'm a little confused as to how we are to know when terms become outdated and are no longer acceptable. I am white, my best friend of 30yrs is not. Growing up, she was described as half cast - she was happy, I was happy nobody batted an eyelid. About 8yrs ago I referred to another friend of same colour and was told "oh your not allowed to say half cast any more it's racist, you say coloured now"... so it took a while to correct my terminology but I did and now I'm not allowed to use the word coloured because that's racist? I don't give a crap what colour my friend is, or anybody else for that matter but who decides when words are now considered racist and who tells me so I don't keep using them?

BertrandRussell · 09/12/2019 14:24

Why not just ask your best friend? Or some of her friends?

AutumnRose1 · 09/12/2019 14:25

“ I'm a little confused as to how we are to know when terms become outdated and are no longer acceptable”

I know what you mean. I had this chat with family friends ranging in age from 26 to 53. We had different instructions at work, and the 53 year old has had a few sets of instructions, the first of which included “never mention colour”. I think that might have been mine, I’m 43. Then it became fine under certain conditions.

I don’t know, I never really pay attention. But I’m increasingly aware that I’ve taken offence at peoples comments when they’ve said what they were taught was the right thing to say.

This is partly why the OP post is useless without any idea of what was said.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 09/12/2019 14:26

@whereishappyat that comes up a lot and a few posters find it utterly improbable that you really don't know!! One even regularly suggests that the terminology of years ago hasn't been publicly debunked so that some of have no idea whether there is any correct way to vocalise any physical difference.

After all, to even notice someone has different skin colour to yourself is, in itself, racist.

After that there is no possibility of a meaningful discussion

AutumnRose1 · 09/12/2019 14:29

I was sad when “people of colour” came in.

Then again, I didn’t like being called BME either.

whereishappyat · 09/12/2019 14:29

@BertrandRussell my friend didn't understand why she couldn't be referred to as half cast anymore but we had a chat and agreed to avoid any upset at others expense we would say coloured. I didn't know you shouldn't use the word coloured and clearly neither did she so what hope have we got? But I wouldn't want to be branded a racist for using these terms because I've never actually known anybody be offended by it.

strawberrieshortcake · 09/12/2019 14:31

And now this thread has descended into the usual ‘everything is racist nowadays..they are all snowflakes’. It is very easy to find out if something is racist. If you say something and someone tells you it is offence to some people then you don’t say it again. Very simple.

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