AIBU to tell you all that the NHS is not up for sale and that Corbyn is lying?

[Adenosine]

Background:

• NHS currently purchases drugs produced by US pharmaceutical companies at a reduced rate compared to other healthcare providers including in the US due to two factors - economy of scale as NHS is a national provider and EU patent laws which allow for patents to run out quicker than in countries outside the EU so cheaper generic equivalents are available sooner.
• the patent aspect is already problematic due to a shift in focus from pharmaceutical companies driven by scientific advances which means new products are tailored and therefore cannot be purchased in bulk and open to the same discount as they are useful to fewer people so we buy less of them and don't get money off. Cf many many news articles about NHS not buying life saving drugs.

So, that's the background. Things are already uneasy with our purchasing model unable to allow us access to new drugs.

And then brexit comes along. And with it the possible change to patent protection which has been a key figure in our purchasing negotiations. So we will have to renegotiate in light of us leaving.

And all of this is just a small snippet of the negotiations we'll have to do. But we can't start them yet, because Brexit isn't decided. No one knows what the fuck's going to happen, so we start informal talks. They're not secret as such, just off the record because nothing can be set until we leave/not.

And the content of these talks is what Corbyn's got his hands on. Talks which for very good reasons raise the issue of medicine pricing for the reasons above but which include no agreement.

Literally nothing has been agreed.

The phrase "open market access" occurs right at the beginning of the talks. It describes the US opening gambit which is open market access which the other party [ie the UK] can set out exclusions from.

It's an opener. It isn't agreed. It's just a bargaining position. And it isn't about the NHS. It's about the general US position when they open negotiations with anyone. It's what countries do when they get into negotiating talks with each other.

And Corbyn has spun all of this around into being about evil Tories selling off our glorious NHS. When that isn't happening.

Somebody decided it was far better to pay £14 million a year of taxpayer's money instead of nothing, when the free service had been working perfectly well. Try and get your head around that one!

Yabu go away

And Boris isn’t he has told so many lies we can’t keep up. Also how come apart from a select few that you know?

Of course, that's not to say for-profit companies won't also buy up NHS property, if the permitted.

That's what we saw with care home provider Southern Cross, which was bought by a private equity fund.

The new owner, Blackstone made estimated profits of £500 million, stripped the assets, selling the properties and leasing them back to run the homes. Come 2011, Southern Cross couldn't afford the rent and crashed.

It was all perfectly legal – and created a crisis because Southern Cross was so large and had so many residents that there just wasn't anywhere for them all to go if they'd had to move out.

Southern Cross care fiasco sheds light on secretive world of private equity
Critics are asking how the provision of social care was allowed to be bought and sold like any common or garden commodity
www.theguardian.com/business/2011/jun/03/southern-cross-care-private-equity

But obviously the Southern Cross experience isn't bounden to happen.

It's just an example of what can go wrong when health and social care is seen primarily as an arena for profit, rather than a common good.

As private companies buy out parts of the NHS to deliver specific services we all have to understand that it means that private companies make a profit. The NHS never made a profit from these services. They delivered quality care and any underspends were factored back in to the NHS budget. Nobody profited, or should ever profit from someone's ill health.

For example, the private care company looking after your elderly parent charges you X. The carer gets paid Y, a lot less than you are paying. The company makes a profit and the directors earn a bonus.

The directors are earning bonuses because of your parent's dementia. That is absolutely obscene.

And it's only going to get worse.

YANBU. Why the fuck would Trump want to buy the NHS? How in hell would it benefit him? The Tories have said countless times that the NHS is not for sale. The documents Corbyn blagged off the Russians said nothing of the sort either. The NHS is no more privatised now than it was under Labour. People are either stupid or are being wilfully ignorant about the matter.

@Adenosine

I await your proof @ssd

Read your thread then.

Why would Trump want to buy the NHS?

Are you joking?

Contracts, endless lucrative contracts.

documents blagged off the Russians oh yeah. And that was a week ago. Why then, did Bojo not deny it at the time? What a load of shit. He didn’t deny it because they have been in talks with US healthcare. You’re right though Trump has no interest in our socialist healthcare system but privatise, let in big pharma to ramp up drug costs and he’ll be salivating. Wise up.

The USA are after aspects of our NHS.

Thankyou for highlighting this,

The NHS won’t be for sale but its constituent parts are. You’re seriously trying to say that Boris Johnson is someone you believe over oh I don’t know, pretty much anyone else in this campaign?! The NHS will be nothing but a shopfront with private companies behind the facade

It’s great that you registered with MN to tell us both that free at the point of access universal care is shit and that the Tories aren’t going to change it in anyway! You must think mothers are pretty thick. Classic Dom, eh?

I think people who deny the US will move into the NHS to privatise it further are either wealthy enough to be able to pay to skip the queues when they need health care, or they are thickhealthy enough to think they won't need the NHS for years.

Trump wants US drug companies and medical service providers to be able to make money out of selling drugs and services to British people at a high cost.

It's not so much 'selling the NHS' as it is reducing the scope of the NHS to (a) allow the UK Tory government to stop funding it, and (b) let private companies, from home and abroad, fill the gap with for-profit healthcare.

There's money to be made out of sick and desperate people.

People are either stupid or are being wilfully ignorant about the matter.

Oh the irony of this comment is just brilliant.

YABU.

My medication is delivered (when they manage it and don't just not turn up for weeks) by a private company. They don't do that for shits and giggles, they do it to make money, so charge more than it would cost for the NHS to do it.

The US is pissed off that the NHS has enough buying power to be able to get drugs cheaper than is charged to US insurance companies and citizens. For profit. They still make a profit on the sale, just not the obscene amounts made by hawking up the cost of lifesaving medicine to out of the reach of innocent people whose only crime is to be sick and too poor to afford the deductibles or any insurance that doesn't exclude their medical conditions. My medication, whilst expensive, would be astronomically unaffordable were the US companies to get their way and charge the amounts they get away with in the US.

The local OOH service is provided by a private company. They do it for profit.

Other companies make money providing other services. Virgin recently sued the NHS for not giving them a contract, taking more money away from the NHS.

The cleaning is done by private companies. They do it for profit. Catering is, too. Even the Friends' shops where you used to be able to get toothpaste, socks and a few second hand books with the profit going straight to the NHS/hospital have been largely replaced by WH Smiths charging a tenner for a £1.60 tube of Colgate and £15 for a book to read. That's not to improve services out of altruism, that's to make a profit.

It's not up for sale. It's already being sold.

Trump is America First.
He isn't lying about this.
America produces government reports highlighting the over payment of Americans for their drugs.
Is it any wonder that the drug lobbyists in the USA want that changed.

waysandmeans.house.gov/sites/democrats.waysandmeans.house.gov/files/documents/U.S.%20vs.%20International%20Prescription%20Drug%20Prices_0.pdf

PerkingFaintly
The new owner, Blackstone made estimated profits of £500 million, stripped the assets, selling the properties and leasing them back to run the homes.

Your examples appear to be blaming the Conservatives - however your link says;
"Blackstone pocketed almost £500m when it finally sold its interest in Southern Cross in 2006." - under a Labour Government.

Hinchingbrooke Hospital - initial decision in 2009 - under Labour;

"Although the coalition government awarded the 10-year Hinchingbrooke contract in November 2011, after it came to power, it was the Labour government and Burnham as health secretary that judged the hospital to be “failing” and who signed off on the decision to appoint a private contractor in 2009."

www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/01/31/hosp-j31.html

Serco Cornwall - first contract awarded in 2006 - under Labour.

"In April 2006 Serco was awarded a five year contract to provide out-of-hours service in Cornwall and the Scilly Isles valued at £6.1 million."

OP please answer a pp's question about which countries have longer patents

The NHS is no more privatised now than it was under Labour. People are either stupid or are being wilfully ignorant about the matter.

Read the fucking thread. It’s not us who are stupid or ignorant.

Jenpop234

Are you having a laugh? If I have to explain to you why Trump wants in to NHS contracts then you are unbelievably stupid. Believe me, the NHS is very much more privatised than it ever was under Labour. A lot has changed since 2010. Check out Virgin Care for a start.

And it isn't just the contracts, it's the incredibly detailed data we have, which is hugely bloody valuable to private health contractors. Most of which are in the US.

Please don't bore me telling me how wrong and uninformed I am. I have worked in this field for years.And exactly what does Corbyn and his documents have anything to do with the NHS?

Nothing. So I'll respectfully tell you to fuck off with your ridiculous opinions.

Just wanted to add I am a Brit living in the USA, so I have experienced both sides.

You don't want to let NHS purchasing power be diluted, the Democrats are battling to bring the USA in line with the UK.

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/01/23/health/phrma-lobbying-costs-bn/index.html

Big Pharma spends record millions on lobbying amid pressure to lower drug prices cnn

Is there enough proof for you now @Adenosine?

Meanwhile - European Commission 11th July 2019;

"EU-U.S. trade talks: milestone reached in mutual recognition on pharmaceuticals."

"The positive transatlantic trade agenda established in the Joint Statement includes a commitment from both sides to reduce barriers and increase trade in a range of sectors, including pharmaceuticals."

ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_19_4090

'dodgy dealings' I expect - goodness knows what they've signed us up to.