Children of working mothers are more likely to mug you

[chomalungma]

I know. It was 13 years ago. It's probably out of context. Sometimes you say things that rattle a few cages.

But it all builds a picture of our current Prime Minister, Boris Johnson.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/04/boris-johnson-claimed-children-of-working-mothers-more-likely-to-mug-you

"“In the last 30 years an ever-growing proportion of British women have been ‘incentivised’ or socially gestapoed into the workplace, on what seems to me to be the dubious assumption that the harder a woman works the happier she will be, when I am not sure that is true of women or anyone else,” he wrote.

In the book, published before he became mayor of London, Johnson said an increasing number of female graduates tended to pair up with male graduates – a process known by economists as “assortative mating” – and that they then pool their advantages.

“The result is that in families on lower incomes the women have absolutely no choice but to work, often with adverse consequences for family life and society as a whole – in that unloved and undisciplined children are more likely to become hoodies, Neets [not in education, employment or training] and mug you on the street corner."

AIBU to think that his articles from the past reveal much about his views on women, Muslims, LGBT people....

Ok, I’ll stop work, let the house get repossessed (mortgaged At £375 a month but with zero income), not be eligible for assistance as I have up work voluntary, made myself intentionally homeless so put us on the streets.
Alternatively I can put myself and my daughter at risk by taking up with any bloke who is prepared to be in a relationship with me who can bankroll me - because Boris says there’s more chance of my straight A student, community volunteering daughter mugging someone due to us both working than there is of me winding in an abusive relationship with someone who could also abuse my daughter when the bloke knows I’m nothing but a gold digger......

@cukooboo
How can you prevent this though? Less children are being born & most mothers are staying in work either ft or pt, technology is changing rapidly etc. I think it's incredibly hard these days to get back into work after a long break unless you have specific skills. The workplace is much more competitive these days
As someone that has completed a graduate scheme and succeeded in relatively a senior role with little experience, I just don't buy into this idea that skills can't be learnt and you can't make up for missing experience. Of course technology and working practices change, but this idea that you can only do job roles that you have unbroken experience in is flawed. For starters it would mean that nobody could have a career change or simply enter a different industry/company with unfamiliar technology and practices without starting from the bottom. We all know that doesn't and shouldn't happen, but why is it assumed that SAHMs must do this?

The workplace is competitive but that doesn't mean that experience should be king. Potential, talent and skills should also be valued and this is what needs to change. It's lazy and shortsighted to ignore these things in favour of experience.

as soon as this started to happen, the average cost of housing started to reflect this

No it bloody didn't. The house prices started going up exponentially in the 2000s, the situation changed with more women in work a long time before then. House prices went up because of several economic factors, mainly because many people saw property as a good investment. Don't blame women for wanting some bloody financial independence and being able to make their way in the world.

He really has some quite startling issues with women doesn't he? He's a revolting excuse for a human being.

Absolutely correct Juliette. I’m sick of women being blamed for house prices. And if house prices dropped tomorrow, plenty of women would still work because they gain a lot more from it (and for many jobs society gains too) then just paying the mortgage. Clearly it’s a mind blowing fact to some that women can earn (and that men can do home related stuff!)

House price increases have also being affected by low interest rates, lack of building of actually houses as population has increased/live longer/more single people & concentration of jobs in certain areas.

Potential, talent and skills should also be valued and this is what needs to change.

But how do you change that mindset? I struggled after uni to get into my chosen field simply because I had no experience even though I was capable. Employers like experience regardless.

Whilst I totally disagree that the children of working mothers are more likely to mug you, he kind of has a point about mothers being socially gestapoed into the workplace.

I'm a SAHM. I like being a SAHM. I want to be a SAHM & I'm lucky enough to have the chance to be one. Some women want to spend more time with their children, but have to work. I personally think that's wrong. We've gone from women having to stay at home to women having to work. Women should be able to choose what's best for themselves & their families and not be forced either way.

I see the ideal as both parents working but not all the hours God sends, and both contributing to childcare and household tasks. Women have gone into the workplace but men haven't gone into the home. What we need is better paid part time work so that more people can work but also have time to live.

The trouble with being an SAHMs and doing all the housework and childcare, you see time and time again on these boards. The husband gets used to being treated like Lord Muck, his life does not change significantly after having children, in fact it might even be better because now his wife is at home and doing all the housework. Then the wife wants to go back to work and he doesn't step up in any way. Partly, he doesn't know how to because his wife has never let him do anything on his own with the kids, and he hasn't had to do any cleaning for five years. Of course it's not all our fault but as women we can be our own worse enemies. And apologies for the above being so hetero-normative.

I agree Juliette. It’s certainly been how dh and I have worked things... and our first child was born back in the day when maternity leave was just 3 months and there was no paternity leave. That’s worth mentioning because sometimes people cite the fact that it’s women who give birth and bf as reasons why they SAH. I was an avid bf and continued long after returning to work, and of course it’s much easier now with far longer maternity leave and also the option of shared parental leave. Ultimately it’s up to couples to choose what works best for their family but it surprises me frankly that anyone in the 21st century can hold it up as some kind of ideal that women should give up work

@Acciocats @Juliette20
I think that no universal ideal exists because individuals and families are all different.

The ideal that you uphold of everybody doing everything equally doesn't work for lots of families. If one parent's earning potential is much higher than the other then it can be more financially lucrative to focus on optimising the one career rather than compromising this to facilitate a second NMW job with little prospects. Not everybody earns the same, not everybody is interested in the same things and not everybody has the same skills. Some people are naturally better at caring for children and enjoy it more. Everybody is different and it's ridiculous in this context to suggest that we should all be doing the same things and splitting our energy and time in the same ways.

The only caveat I would add though is that SAHPs need to make sure that they take sensible steps to sure up their financial position so that they don't find themselves in an unduly difficult position should something go wrong.

@bumpitybumper of course there is no ‘universal ideal’ which is why I said it’s up to couples to decide what works best for them.

I would add though that very many couples (perhaps most?) tend to have similar levels of education/ qualifications / ability so no doubt start off with the same capacity to work and earn. Similarly, none of us are born knowing how to cook, clean, change a nappy etc so these skills are learned (or not!) along the way.

So, although there is indeed no universal ideal, we should perhaps be more surprised by couples who don’t think of this as the norm than by those who do.

@Acciocats
I would add though that very many couples (perhaps most?) tend to have similar levels of education/ qualifications / ability so no doubt start off with the same capacity to work and earn
I'm not sure that this holds true for most couples. In my experience lots of couples seem to share a similar level of education but they have most often entered different professions and industries with different levels of pay. Lots of industries are dominated by one sex and often (not always) the better paid ones tend to be dominated by men.

Similarly, none of us are born knowing how to cook, clean, change a nappy etc so these skills are learned (or not!) along the way
Of course, but they're not the skills I was referring to. Raising children is infinitely more than domestic drudge and not everyone is skilled at really engaging with children, meeting their emotional needs and supporting their learning/interests effectively. It goes way beyond meeting a child's physical needs and some parents are just less well suited to this because of their skillset and natural preferences. It sometimes makes sense to specialise at what you're good at rather than make life difficult and achieve an inferior result in the name of everybody doing exactly the same
In any other area of life this would be a pretty standard concept and not controversial at all.

‘ Raising children is infinitely more than domestic drudge’

Absolutely agree with this!

What I disagree with is the implication that women are instinctively so much better at meeting the emotional needs of their children, imparting values to them and supporting them in all the myriad ways which parenting involves.

Becoming a parent and actually learning to parent is something none of us are born knowing, it’s something you learn as you go along, and I’ve no doubt it’s also something which the more you do it, the better you become at it, rather than one parent being automatically so much better at it than the other. And as with anything, if you take on demarcated roles (eg one earner, one carer) then naturally as time progresses each partner will become ‘better’ at ‘their’ role. It doesn’t necessarily mean they were born being better at it though

Women should be able to choose what's best for themselves & their families and not be forced either way

No

PARENTS should be able to work out what is best.
We all need to stop thinking only a "wife" r female can do x or y.
And when SAHP = all the drudgery alongside educating children that s wrong. How does hanging out a sheet educate a child?

We ve progressed to having freedoms and no one should be taking those away..rather teach all genders to be equal and equally involved.

Sure as a loneworkingfemaleparent it would have been nice to have a "wife" but actually outsourcing cleaning etc helped greatly

P.s my poor "abandoned " to childcare youngest has got 3 interviews lined up to study medicine ...don't think she about to mug anyone any time soon...

@Acciocats
None of us are born with the knowledge we need to fulfill any role, but we will have innate skills, preferences and competencies that will mean that we will find certain activities and roles easier than others. This is honed as we grow and ideally in adulthood we can find a role that utilises our strengths effectively and doesn't play too much on our weaknesses. Of course both parents need to be involved and engaged parents, but is it ideal that they split everything equally to achieve this irrespective of the effect this has on the parents and children involved? I'm not convinced and find this at odds with the logic one would apply to any other area of life.

@embracelife exactly. It’s depressing to see people still talking about this as a ‘women’s’ issue. I’m heading towards 60, had my first child when maternity legislation was pretty woeful (12 weeks off! ) and dads didn’t even get paternity leave. Even so I never held the beliefs that a few women on here seem to have - that women should somehow be the default carers and that it’s women daring to have careers which have caused house prices to go up!! Dh and I both chose to become parents, it wasn’t my role to meet all their emotional needs and look after the home while dh’s role was to earn. We were both capable of both!

In 2019 society is far more supportive in terms of long ML, paternity leave, shared parental leave so it’s even more baffling that anyone should want to chase women back into the home simply because they are women.

Sure I might be better at taking dc to park and other parent may be better building lego.
but either could do it if they were willing....
Dad was crap at emotional needs due to his own mh issues...it could equally be the other way round. There is nothing about being female or Male that says you wont have issues which impact a child. Ensure children semblance of stable homes etc and the rest will follow.
Having or not a SAHP of any gender is not the indicator of happiness or being loved. Or becoming a mugger.

Many 50s housewives turned to drugs "mother's little helper" as there was little option...

Society needs to change ...flexible family friendly working. No guilt about employing people to help. SAHP if you want and it works for you.

but not backwards into gender defined roles

I feel like I am lucky to have (eventually) got a good balance as a late forties mother with 4 children. DP does the trad 9-5 in the office in the city and isn't really that flexible, it has to be said. But equally, he is well paid but doesn't have one of those mega-jobs where he's travelling all the time and on phone calls all night. So when he gets home at 6 he does the majority of the cooking and tidying up. My job is more hectic, and I am expected to travel, be on calls in the evening BUT I am based from home so can put a wash on etc most days and tidy up a bit, accept parcels and, crucially, pick the kids up from school at the end of the day, so we dont have childcare costs anymore and I can supervise homework. I am paid a good salary to do this, the same as someone a bit younger than me doing the 8-8 slog in the city so, with DPs contribution, we earn probably what the SAHP partners do in law firms in the city as the one earning person, without the stress, crazy hours and inequality.

The ONLY reason this fairly workable, low stress, well paid situation is possible though is because I always worked, outside maternity leaves, since the day I left university. I now have a senior role that I am pretty happy with, without that much sacrifice. It is possible to have a good balance but women not working is NOT the answer to achieving that balance in modern society.

Of course both parents need to be involved and engaged parents, but is it ideal that they split everything equally to achieve this irrespective of the effect this has on the parents and children involved?

What is 'the effect' on parents and children of having two equal parents? You talk about it as if it's a known bad thing.

@findamum

That sounds really positive. Can I ask - whereabouts roughly are you? Ie Se? And what do you see as sr partner in law firm earning?

Im in the SE yes. I dont think i said law firm partner I said my partner as we're not on millions 😁 but joint annual income in the hundred thousands, which is around the income of some of the sole earning famillies I know where the bloke is always off travelling and the woman is picking up all the slack at home.

Oh he's vile. And will be next PM. Shameless

Lisa I assume Pp is imagining some kind of ridiculous 50/50 split situation where things aren't equal unless each parent butters one side of a sandwich. Ofc everyone loses out and the partners become resentful in that kind of split.

In the real world, normal,decent,averagely capable men are more than able to do their share and spend time with their family,willingly without a set time table or a list of their half of the chores.