To not understand how this is cultural appropriation?

[NewUsername18382828]

Namechanged for this.
DH and I decided to give DD (who is now 6) a name which is originally from another country. Neither of us have relatives or any connection there, we just liked the name. There is an English variant of the name but we didn't like the sound of it as much so went with the one we liked most. Didn't think it would be a problem, a name is a name.

Well anyway, a mum of a girl in DD's class at school was born in that country. She heard me call DD at the gates and started talking to me about her name. She was asking what our ties were to the country, and so on. When I said there weren't any and we just liked the name, she muttered something about cultural appropriation and left with her child. Fast forward another couple of weeks and I've just been informed by another parent that she's been badmouthing us, saying we shouldn't use a foreign name when we have no ties to the country, it's cultural appropriation.

AIBU to have no clue how this is cultural appropriation? I always thought a name was just a name.

@doadeer

So it's OK for you to appropriate another culture as a white person, beause you are married to someone from it? I'm sorry, but that is such bullshit.

What about a white person wearing dreadlocks who has black cousins? Or who doesn't but has learned about the history? Or just likes them?

The truth is you don't know just by looking at someone what they do or don't know, what their history or cultural identity is. This divisive way of thinking is just more virtue signalling. You are virtuous by way of marriage, and therefore able to do what you like, whereas I'm a 'bad' white person, and can't. Why can't I understand the cultural significance of things?

The reason you are struggling to explain it doesn't make sense. If we are both white British, it's either OK for both of us to respectfully appropriate a culture, or it isn't.

I said he should understand the shirt he wears and be an ally to the culture it comes from

And maybe he does. People can and do feel strong affinity with cultures that are not their own.

Balonz

Hi again Doadeer,

But that's such an odd response to be unconvinced by something that you haven't experienced.

I'm not Jewish so it's not for me to say how someone Jewish should feel in a given situation or how someone trans should feel or anyone who has suffered prejudice or discrimination. I can't say you I don't believe how you feel!

I'm quite convinced that someone may feel offended in these situations. That's a subjective reaction, which is entirely a matter for the person concerned. But in your previous post you referred to unfairness and injustice. They are concepts which are capable of objective definition. Something is not unjust because the person experiencing says it is unjust.

What I was asking was: by what conception of fairness or justice is what is under discussion wrong?

I know that Laurie - I'm from Dublin and live in NI. My point is that if you're not Irish and want to use an Irish name, you should do a vague bit of research. It wouldn't take long to discover the political meaning behind Saoirse.

And I just used that name as an illustration. There must be (conservatively) hundreds of names worldwide that are boring/normal/pretty in one culture but inappropriate in another.

I can sort of see where she was coming from. When we chose DCs names our rules were: no names from another culture, no feminised versions of trad male names, no ridiculously frilly names for girls. It's a long time ago but I think the rationale was we didn't have those links with other cultures and it just seemed a bit wrong and grasping to borrow a name from there, and choosing a feminised male name sounded like you had wanted that child to be a boy.

@justcly Clytemnestra is the best name I’ve heard in a while. You sound cool as fuck tbh 👌

There’s a comedian called Cariad Lloyd. No Welsh connection AFAIK. Cariad means love in Welsh, but it isn’t actually a name in Welsh, any more than Love is a name.

it's either OK for both of us to respectfully appropriate a culture, or it isn't.

But yes this is the very point! It's okay for any of us to celebrate a culture respectfully. The term cultural appropriation is used to describe when someone has not been respectful.

I was answering a hypothetical question below, I actually have never worn anything traditional from DHs culture - I was asked how he would feel and I answered as accurately as I could. Someone else may feel differently he is just one man.

@gnushoes does that not leave like 4 names to choose from ?! What’s a name not from another culture what about names that apply across like 8 different cultures and languages ?! What’s a ‘ridiculously frilly’ girls name ?!

I think that in this very specific situation, the harm caused by unintentional cultural appropriation is far less than the harm caused by telling the rest of the school that there is something wrong with a 6 year old child's name.

OP???

16 pages of reading and no name! Come back!!!!

But yes this is the very point! It's okay for any of us to celebrate a culture respectfully

Well then how can naming your child a name fro a different culture be wrong? You are using it for the most precious thing in your life.

@TriangularRatbag yes that's a good point about the notion of just and unjust. How many people does it take saying something is unjust before it moves from being subjective to objective?

When women first campaigned for the vote they were a minority - how long before this became a movement based on the concept that it was unjust for them to be denied the vote?

@Glacecherrychops - I haven't actually made any reference to the name, I was originally responding to someone asking about the wider issued of cultural appropriation.

In answer to your question... I suggest the OP asks the woman! Which is what I said I would have done in my first post. As PP have said... Maybe the name has cultural significance in the country. It's impossible for us to speculate without knowing the name or context.

The term cultural appropriation is used to describe when someone has not been respectful.

I have no problem if this is actually the case.

But most of the debates on CA I’ve ever witnessed get tied up with that person’s genetic connection with a culture.

I’m of the opinion that a) those born within the culture don’t necessarily always respect it and b) people can have strong affiliation with and respect for cultures that aren’t their own.

And it’s short sighted to try to and stifle the enthusiasm of the latter.

cariad Lloyd certainly sounds welsh, but who knows.
love was one of those virtue names, often used by the puritans, akin to charity, faith, hope, endeavour, chastity, patience, fortitude.
cruz was in a similar category in spain when beckhams chose it for their son, ie, ultra religious and rather antiquated, much to the bemusement of the Spaniards...
wonder if it's had an upturn in popularity since.
I predict an upsurge in patricia by football fans; a la frank lampard, named after his late mother, who was sister to harry redknap's wife.

how do you explain this situation then - a child is born in England and her Dad is Irish although he moved to England in his childhood and now has an English accent. He marries a woman who is English, born in England but who’s father is Scottish. They called the child ‘Eilidh Niamh’. They are to all intents and purposes an English family with English accents. The child has Scottish and Irish heritage but is English. Is the child ‘appropriating’ culture herself by pronouncing her own name without the correct accent and being semi unaware of its heritage ?

What if fictional Eilidh Niamh wants to carry on this tradition for her family and call her own Children Irish or Scottish names ? She marries a white American with vague German and Polish heritage amongst others and calls the baby ‘Caoimhe Ceilidh’ . Lovely. But baby’s own dad and his American family regularly get the pronunciation not quite right. Do we have to police who gets the ‘right’ to use traditional names? Where do you draw the line ?

A friend of mine was worried about calling her daughter Erin as she has no Irish connection. I said it would probably be fine.

The thing is, I suspect the OP and her daughter will keep running into people with the same issue about this, so it doesn't matter what we think.

I actually think of Erin as an American name. I’ve never met an Irish Erin. All Americans and Aussies.

We give all our pets interesting names. Love them all to bits, so choosing a good name is crucial to us. All our chickens had Greek names, and yes Clytemnestra was one, shortened to Clytie. We also had a Hecuba, an Aphrodite and a Medusa. The rabbit was called Attila the Bun! Clytemnestra is a fabulous name.

I have Irish family who spell their daughter's name Eirinn - there's an accent i can't do on my phone

I love how poor @doadeer has become the spokesperson for cultural appropriation because she has a husband of colour.

As always it's just so yawn listening to white mumsnet trying to argue that a minority person's feelings should be dismissed / the woman 'should be told to fuck off' / told to 'speak another language'. Unless we know the name and the significance we simply CAN'T judge if the OP was BU.

@Footiefan2019 it left us tons of names. One DD's name fits the Mumsnet Holy Grail of never appearing in most popular lists (we've met one other in two decades), is name that's been used for centuries and yet people like it. Loads of choice.
Ridiculously frilly? A huge percentage of the names people suggest on the baby names boards. Names appear to be ludicrously gendered now. Boys get ex-surnames and girls polysyllabic things with feminine suffixes.

I think this woman is batshit and you may need to warn school she is behaving like this

When I think about it we have friends with children named from all cultures and I have never heard anyone comment. A good example being the husband (English) and wife (half English/half Malaysian) with 3 children; one has a very traditionally English name, one has a Arabic name and one an Irish name. Lovely people with lovely names