To think the nursing crisis could be helped by

[CurryBelly]

Going back to the old secondment system?

Get rid of the degree requirements, train HCAs, pay them whilst they work. Keep the degrees for nurse prescribers and specialist nursing.

I’m a nurse and have always found that most HCAs would make better nurses that the people fresh out of uni, some of who have very little caring experience.

Going to uni, especially without the bursary is just impossible for a lot of people who would make excellent nurses. The associate program seems to be doing well but I think we’d encourage far more people into nursing if we scrapped the degree

100% agree. This is why I support apprenticeships so much. There are jobs, like nursing, where you simply don't need a degree.

My SSis went to uni to study nursing and dropped out after a year because she couldn't handle the exams.
Her knowledge and ability were incredible - she's just never managed well with exams.
She'd have been a fantastic nurse.

No. Deskilljng nurses in this way would set the profession back years. The evidence shows that degree educated nurses are safer for patients and lower mortality.

Not to mention pretty much every other developed country had degree educated nurses - why on earth should we have an inferior workforce?

Most people who argue this do so because they think nursing just care work. It's so much more.

Excuse typos, I obviously feel strongly about this

I’m not sure we should turn the clock back (and I was trained under the old system in the 80s). Medicine and nursing have moved in and everything is evidence based now so nurses need to be trained in how to research real evidence, and to reason and question things. Going to Uni helps with these skills. The bursery definitely needs to come back though!!
I do believe there is a way in for HCAs? And there are band 4s now in some hospitals which would be a bit like the old SENs?

Definitely keep nursing as a degree but free or with hugely reduced tuition fees. It's in the national interest.

I agree, some of the most caring people I’ve met are hca’s, no offence to some rcns but I’ve met a lot who are perfect on paper but

No, it would devalue the profession. Nursing isn't purely care work, it's a very demanding and complex role and needs to be a degree related profession.

It needs to be more like an apprenticeship with a bursary.

I came into nursing through the advanced diploma route and with a bursery. I simply could not have managed to pass a degree at that stage but so wanted to be a nurse.
I now have a Masters in Advanced practice and have saved countless lives in my 20 year career. Most of the friends I trained with are now senior hospital managers , intensive care sisters, Specialist Nurses etc.
Bring back the advanced Diploma and bursary I say.

Im a degree nurse and theres absolutely nothing wrong with my ability to care - thank you. I dont think having a degree automatically equates to being an uncaring person. I also dont think specialist nurses and nurse prescribers should then be required to a degree. I have specialist qualifications (3 x modules) that dont equate to a degree but I was required to study at a level 7, so previous study was expected. Same a Nurse Prescribing, thats 2 x modules at level 7. Do you think these qualification levels should be lowered? Thus lowering the level of knowledge? Thus setting the profession back?

However I dont agree with the scrapping of bursaries. We need to encourage people into the profession and this isnt the way to do it.

But Pippi you have a masters so clearly have the ability to do a degree!

Being caring and having academic ability are not mutually exclusive, and they are BOTH essential to nursing.

And it's also about status - nurses are expected to challenge poor practice and question others when necessary, it's no justification at all to say that the doctor told you to do it. Can't you see how much harder that would be if nurses were the only health profession without a degree?

There is a route for HCAs to get qualification on the job but only up to Band 4. It takes 18 months and they are paid at Band 3 while they do it. They aren’t called nurses though. Assistant Practitioner is the title I think.

Also, you'll find that specialist nurses that came in through diploma etc will end up with degrees or masters, because thats the level of knowledge thats required. So would you want them to still have the same level of knowledge, but scrap the title 'degree' or 'masters', which seems a bit pointless

I don't want someone who can't cope with an exam to nurse me, it doesn't give confidence that they'll manage under pressure or be able to make quick decisions.

No it would unfortunately devalue nursing as a profession however your not wrong about good nurses not getting through. We probably need a system like the enrolled nurse the good hands on nurse.

No definitely not. Caring skills can be learned and so lack of experience isn’t a barrier at all. In fact if they’re less experienced they won’t have picked up bad habits in care before doing the nursing.
Nurses have a long history of being the fall guys (girls!) and scapegoats and we need an educated to workforce to enable our position to be stronger and to challenge poor practice and work in an evidence based manner and have real knowledge underlying our skills.
I am in Scotland an a nursing student so am benefitting enormously by the fact we still have a bursary- at just over £8000 a year it meant I could afford to train now when my kids are not needing me at home so much. If it was going to cost me (we also have no fees for uni in Scotland!) I wouldn’t be able to do it at all.
Removing the fees and reinstating the bursary but linking these to a commitment to working for the NHS for a given period would help the nursing crisis.

And as a student nurse I am completing 44 weeks of study per year- 22 of those are hands on, shift work in the NHS (or some care homes) so I will be educated and experienced by the time I graduate.

I have no problem with nurses taking a degree but I don't think you can substitute the experience you get working on a ward in the NHS.

I'm not a nurse, I was a clinical physiologist, you need a degree now but when I started all you needed was a BTEC National, and you could then take an HNC which I did.

I worked full time and went to college then uni 1 day a week, a long day, 9am - 8pm with an hour long drive at both ends.

I would like to see nursing and other allied health care to be like this, either day release or block release and take the degree over a longer period.

Nurses have to do 2300 clinical hours on the wards and in community as part of their degree.

I agree with you. I did my nurse training in 1993-1996. It was project 2000 then. We didn't have a lot of academic work to do and we got a monthly bursary that was enough to live off without getting into any debt.

If I had to train now I really don't think I would ever have managed a degree course. I'm not at all academic but I could do the practical side and look after peolpe, I only really learnt the job properly once I'd qualified and started working.

Mary lou2 I value Nurses highly (at one point wanted to train as a nurse) However how on earth do we make uni fees free for Nurses only? What about Teachers ,Doctors,Chemists and so on .They and many others are essential too!.

Well personally I think getting rid of SEN,s was a mistake but a friend of mine is doing a Nursing associate course and whilst it's very new and there are a lot of issues with it it does seem like try have brought back SEN,s under a different name ? I trained in the very early days of he Nursing diploma, Project 2000 and there was a lot of Taj at he insist nurses didn't need a Diploma but than it became the norm just as degree trained nurses will.

The way to solve the nursing crisis is to respect the work that nurses do. I have read countless handwringing threads on here about DC who want to do nursing instead of medicine and how should their DM persuade them not to!

talk at the time*

Keep the degree but make it heavily bursaried. Nurses are so much More than carers. HCA's are a valuable addition to patient care.