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To think the nursing crisis could be helped by

257 replies

CurryBelly · 25/11/2019 07:30

Going back to the old secondment system?

Get rid of the degree requirements, train HCAs, pay them whilst they work. Keep the degrees for nurse prescribers and specialist nursing.

I’m a nurse and have always found that most HCAs would make better nurses that the people fresh out of uni, some of who have very little caring experience.

Going to uni, especially without the bursary is just impossible for a lot of people who would make excellent nurses. The associate program seems to be doing well but I think we’d encourage far more people into nursing if we scrapped the degree

OP posts:
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TheNavigator · 27/11/2019 10:48

As a teacher I disagree immensely. This is already happening, I trained in this way. I gained real experience which was totally different to the ‘placements’ I also went on. I already had a degree but as I had a small baby going back to uni and not having pay was simply not an option I could afford. I was paid an ‘apprentices’ wage until qualified and then progressed through normal pay scales.

You already had a degree - you had been educated to degree level with the research and critical thinking skills that requires, so that route worked for you. Nurses have as much, if not more, professional autonomy, responsibility and accountability as teachers and need to be academically as well as practically equipped for the demands of the modern role.

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LucheroTena · 27/11/2019 10:49

What utter crap tillytrotter, Ward sisters and matrons still manage wards. Where I work the majority are young degree trained nurses and all happily do very good basic care as well as all the extended skill tasks and advanced assessment that makes up modern nursing. They just don’t have enough nurses as we are still stuck with the same or worse nurse:patient ratios from years ago when a good proportion of patients on wards were reasonably well.

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LucheroTena · 27/11/2019 10:55

Rosehip you are advocating a lesser qualified workforce. Hospitals with more degree qualified nurses have lower rates of mortality. So what you propose would be less safe for patients. It is normal in all other developed countries for nurses to have a degree, why do people feel UK nurses need less education?

  • I’m wondering whether these posters feel the same about doctors, pharmacists, physiotherapists etc training on the job and not needing a degree?
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Rosehip345 · 27/11/2019 11:06

No I’m advocating a larger work force that enables those less educated to become so. They wouldn’t have the same responsibilities until fully qualified.

I did have a degree yes, but many of those I trained with did not, this is how they gained it.

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CAG12 · 27/11/2019 11:10

@tillytrotter1 what absolute rubbish. Having a degree does mean nurses wont wash people. Also there still a clear line of hierarchy. Its VERY clear whos nurse in charge of each shift, and its VERY clear who the matron is.

Are you actually a nurse? Or do you work in the healthcare system at all? Im just wandering where those opinions/observations came from as its entirely different from how the two hospitals ive worked at run

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LucheroTena · 27/11/2019 11:37

We don’t want people who are less educated to become nurses. The entry criteria is set for a reason. Or we’d all be able to ‘have a go’ at any job we fancy, whether we’re suitable or not.

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Biggobyboo · 27/11/2019 11:40

Physios, speech therapists, occupational therapists, radiographers etc have been degree qualified for 30 years. Why not nurses?

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Rosehip345 · 27/11/2019 11:51

I think you’re misunderstanding me. I do believe nurses should be degree qualified however I believe everyone should have the opportunity to become qualified.

We want the less educated to become more educated.

Even if for every twenty that try only one becomes qualified, we’d end up with nineteen better qualified healthcare assistants and one more nurse to add to the imaginary 50,000 that wouldn’t have been there otherwise.

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dontalltalkatonce · 27/11/2019 11:58

I think paying them better, giving them better working conditions (why do they not have set rotas? They do in other countries and it works fine, some people want nights, holidays, etc), and re-instating the bursary is the way forward.

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ItMustBeBedtimeSurely · 27/11/2019 13:35

Tillytrotter you are talking complete rubbish. What on earth possessed you to come on to this thread giving lectures about things you know nothing about. Hattie Jacques???

Wards are run by sisters. Sisters are managed by matrons. You and your relative are badly informed on this issue. Perhaps talk to some actual working nurses.

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TheNavigator · 27/11/2019 14:16

Tillytrotter you do know Hattie Jacques was an actress, right? In comedy films - Carry On Nurse was not a documentary Grin

I can't believe people would rather have less educated nurses - anything to avoid paying a decent professional wage to retain and motivate high quality staff.

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OrangeSlices998 · 27/11/2019 14:22

Bring back the bursary! That’ll increase the numbers of nurses and midwives. I wouldn’t have done my training without my bursary, as I was a mature student and left my job to pursue my midwifery degree, and I bet many fantastic nurses and midwives are put off since they scrapped the bursary and no tuition fees.

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Thehop · 27/11/2019 14:24

I would LOVE to be a nurse but can’t afford to study. Such a shame, I think I’d be bloody good at it. If there was anyway I could train and earn I’d leave my job in a heartbeat and apply.

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LucheroTena · 27/11/2019 14:25

I don’t think I misunderstood you, @Rosehip345, you said those that may struggle academically could learn more gradually. I’m telling you that we don’t want academically slow nurses. They won’t be able to do the job. Can you imagine anyone saying this about doctors??? That it would be ok to take student doctors who may struggle academically, to make up the numbers. It’s so insulting!

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JamieVardysHavingAParty · 27/11/2019 14:28

Why not just listen to the feedback of the qualified nurses across the country?

They all say they're leaving because they think the nurse: patient ratios are unsafe, their shifts are too long and they're too poorly paid for the stress involved.

Solve those issues and they won't quit.

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Reallybadidea · 27/11/2019 14:28

Unless there are now lots of vacancies on nursing degree bursaries (as far as I know they are still oversubscribed, despite a fall in applications), how will bringing back the NHS bursary increase the number of qualified nurses?

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LucheroTena · 27/11/2019 14:33

If you bring back the bursary @Reallybadidea then we’ll attract students with life experience and postgrads. Mature students tend to be more resilient in the student and newly qualified years when we get a massive drop out rate. There is then a drop out later on when people get burnt out or can’t do the shift work.

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Rosehip345 · 27/11/2019 14:47

Being a doctor and being a nurse are two very different things. Their entry requirements are much tougher and they need to train for much longer.

Closing the door to those who haven’t learnt yet or come from backgrounds that often don’t value learning until too late is just close minded.

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x2boys · 27/11/2019 14:55

You do.realise that Matron,s were brought back TillyTrotter ?

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Emmacb82 · 27/11/2019 14:56

I think some of these comments about having a degree being a necessity in being a good nurse is actually quite insulting to those of us who trained in the old system and have managed just fine without one! I have 13 years of experience so far and that would hugely outweigh a newly qualified nurse who happens to have a degree. Why does having ‘only’ a diploma make me less educated. If only you could see me constantly questioning the doctors, stopping them from making drug errors etc and all without a poncy piece of paper. Nursing isn’t all about intelligence, sometimes it’s about using common sense - something which a lot of highly educated people actually lack. It’s about compassion, the ability to listen, life experience, and the want to keep learning on the job. None of these things matter if you have a degree or not. Rant over.

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CAG12 · 27/11/2019 14:57

Yes they are two very different jobs, and both require different qualifications.

To say that doctors require a degree and nurses dont need to be able to think critically is dangerous.

Doctors arent infalliable. Youve no idea how many times ive pointed out errors in prescriptions. Teaching nurses that they dont need critical thinking is quite frankly dangerous.

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LucheroTena · 27/11/2019 15:01

Oh here we go. Didn’t take long did it to get to arguing that nursing can be done by any old thick.

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Ohyesiam · 27/11/2019 15:06

I was a Project 2000 nurse, trained on the wards and got my diploma.

After 7 years nursing I ended up doing a degree in a different health science. I did pathology, a &p etc to a much deeper level than in my nurse training, and I was surprised to find it made me a better nurse.
The more theory behind the practice, the better and safer the nursing.

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WrongKindOfFace · 27/11/2019 15:09

I think the training should carry a decent bursary or a wage. The money is a significant barrier for many, particularly those not doing it as a first degree at age 18. We want the best to apply, not just those who can afford it.

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LucheroTena · 27/11/2019 15:10

@Emmacb82, I don’t think anyone is saying you are not as competent, your entry criteria would have been the same as entry criteria is now. Your diploma also would have been done over 3 years and IMO this should have led to a degree. But surely you are not saying now that we should be limiting nurse education to diplomas?

Nursing isn’t all about intelligence but it’s high up on the things I like to see when I interview.

I qualified a lot longer ago than you and trained under the old system. I have a masters but the whole shebang took years. We faced a lot of prejudice back then about the comparable lack of academic credentials. It would have been much better to have done the degree at the outset. Some of my colleagues have done the postgrad nursing course and qualified with their MSc almost complete.

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