to think the natural birth at all costs ideology is fucking crackers?

[burnagirl]

We have a scandal on our hands. Shrewsbury Maternity Unit.

I couldn't believe what I was reading, but to be honest, I wasn't all that surprised, having had many a run in with the natural birthers/earth mothers in the past.

There is a toxic and insidious ideology permeating the 'birth culture' in the UK. This culture that tells women that our bodies were 'made' to give birth, that our bodies KNOWWWW what to do, that any intervention means failure on our part. That childbirth pain is something to be endured with happiness and joy - I mean, really? Is it some sort of a more 'noble' pain? Something transcendental and sacred and good?

Nah, fuck off with that. You wouldn't have a root canal with no pain relief, so WHY do we fetishise female suffering in childbirth? To me, there's this mile-wide misogynistic miasma around this narrative, probably rooted in religion.

Then there's this totally daft idea of intervention/c-section being a failure. Such bollocks. We don't seem to realise that, from an evolutionary perspective, it isn't even necessary for MOST mothers to survive childbirth. All we need is ENOUGH mothers and babies to survive, so no, our bodies are not sacred temples that somehow magically Know Best.

Can we please do away with the woo around childbirth and just do what needs to be done to ensure that mothers and babies come out of the (let's face it, fucking painful and dangerous) process alive and well, however the hell it happens?

I'm not reading it as OP dismissing women AT ALL. She isn't talking about the patients, she's talking about the way the people 'in charge' of the patients approach them. She is speaking about maternity care.

I agree with this - and speaking as someone who had fairly intervention free births, which is in line with what I wanted.

But with my first it could very easily have killed him, as the midwife withheld information during labour (and later withdrew pain relief) that might have led me to push for other interventions rather than a 'wait and see' that had a 50/50 fatality rate, as I learned later.

It's utter nonsense to say there is no societal pressure around vaginal birth v c-section - the media, some midwives, some NCT groups (we had to push for a discussion of C-section recovery even for emergency sections), the toxic phrase 'too posh to push', etc etc.

We should listen to the women who say 'I felt like a failure' or 'I was told I'd taken the cheat's option' and examine the conditions that led them to feel that way, rather than dismissing their experiences because they don't fit a narrative.

And blaming what happened at Shrewsbury on “natural birth” is disingenuous at best, scandalous at worst.

My ideal would actually be that every woman gives birth in a homely atmosphere where machines and experts are on hand to come in if needed.

The geographical aspect of birth is a weird one, why you have to choose a place (home, MLU, delivery suite).

It would be better if more expensive to have a single place with a nice atmosphere where you could choose any approach to birth desired or needed. As cosy as home but as well equipped as a hospital.

No, my question is why should women have to endure being in pain whilst someone else decides if they need pain relief or not when there is no medical reason to deny it.

“Why should labouring women have to endure being in pain if there is no medical reason for them not to be?“

Because she might to choose to do it that way?

The operative term being 'have to' rather than 'choose to'.

Let's given women the power, facts and support to make the decisions for themselves.

@BertrandRussell

Which is why I'm talking about women who do want it

some birthing centre are lovely - they are still NHS, of course you have to be realistic, but they really are attractive places.

All you need is adding some medical facilities and options there. It's not that unrealistic.

Everyone has their own experiences.

Three births, the home birth being the better of the three (still always thankful for three babies who are fine).

Glad I had what I needed for each. But I don’t need to hear about batshit woofest crap either.

As in I don’t accept your way of describing it.

my question is why should women have to endure being in pain whilst someone else decides if they need pain relief or not when there is no medical reason to deny it.

amen to that

@Grimbles I agree to a point, give pain relief when asked for.

It gets complicated though, eg when midwives can tell birth is imminent. Sometimes there isn't time for an epidural.

I was asking for an epidural with my second, the midwives strung me along because they knew there wasn't time but didn't want to tell me because it would have caused me distress. It was the right thing to do.

My first birth I had pethidine which made me vomit a lot and feel totally stoned. The pain was better but I wouldn't have it again.

It's more complicated than an on/off pain switch.

You are certainly not being unreasonable. However I gave birth 'naturally' forty years ago and it was fine and easy.

Coming on here and knowing other mothers, I realise how fortunate I was. It makes me wince to read what others have been through.

'Natural' birth is good to aim for as long as pain relief or whatever is avaialble if needed.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. This article basically says everything I want to on this subject (although it relates to a different NHS scandal!)

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/05/natural-childbirth-report-midwife-musketeers-morcambe-bay

Also, some phrases that should be banned from any discussion on this topic:

‘Your body was designed to do this.’ No. There’s no design. There’s no designer. Until relatively recently, birth was a very effective way of keeping the human population under control. 800 women still die in childbirth every day around the world. Childbirth is dangerous.

‘A planned c-section is major abdominal surgery that comes with risks’. No shit! So fucking patronising. I don’t think many women think a c-section is a trip to Disneyland. And of course it comes with risks, but so does a vaginal birth - serious ones - and it should be up to the individual woman to decide which risks she is happier to take.

‘Ultimately, a healthy baby is all that matters.’ Fuck off. A healthy baby is of course very important - and something that many of those poor parents in Shrewsbury didn’t get to have due to the shocking care they received - but a healthy mother matters too. She’s a human being, not a vessel.

‘Some women make unrealistic birth plans and then are upset when things don’t go as they planned.’ This may be true. But let’s not forget WHY women make birth plans. It’s because they’re encouraged to by midwives - mainly to give them some illusion of control over the process, so we don’t go requesting sections! Yes, the truth is that we’ve got little to no control over a vaginal birth. So tell women that! Don’t encourage them to make ‘plans’ then mock them for being ‘unrealistic’ when their plans go out of the window!

And for me too NannyPear

This was a badly run hospital. Why in 40 years had no one compared it to other hospitals treating the same patient profile? By this I mean, don't compare a Local hospital with one which is a Regional Centre and gets a high proportion of what will be known in advance to be complex cases.

In other non-maternity cases we have seen the same failings and it takes something of a scandal to realise that that particular hospital was not up to scratch, because no one bothered to ask why hospital B 20 miles away had better outcomes. I am thinking here, I think it was Bristol and children's heart surgery.

I was asking for an epidural with my second, the midwives strung me along because they knew there wasn't time but didn't want to tell me because it would have caused me distress. It was the right thing to do.

See, I’m glad you feel okay with that treatment, but I find that disturbing and infantilising to the extreme. To refuse to discuss the reality of the situation with the woman, ‘stringing along’ to avoid causing distress, that’s just awful. I’d be furious if I found out that had happened to me. How patronising, says something very concerning about how those midwives treated an adult in their care.

“ No, my question is why should women have to endure being in pain whilst someone else decides if they need pain relief or not when there is no medical reason to deny it.”
Absolutely.

I was asking for an epidural with my second, the midwives strung me along because they knew there wasn't time

In Switzerland they told me that you can have an epidural at any time - just that as it takes about 15 min to kick in, there is not much point when the baby is already crowning.

I gave birth in Royal Shrewsbury Hospital in 2007. Given how my labour went I absolutely should have had a caesarean, instead it was a pretty rough forceps birth that could have resulted in a serious injury for my baby.

I experienced first hand the drive to keep c-section rates low. I was actually in surgery minutes away from a c-section (DH was in scrubs and everything) before the consultant changed their mind.

My baby had minor injuries but it affected her ability to breastfeed and I struggled on with mixed feeding for only 3 months until I gave up.

I feel very, very lucky we both came out of it alive and relatively unharmed. My heart absolutely breaks for the parents and babies who didn't.

What a great post, OP. And I swallowed that rhetoric whole before I gave birth for the first time.

Afterwards, I felt like such a fool. I’d chosen a waterbirth and had an uncomplicated labour, but I was NOT prepared for the searing agony and the third degree tear ending. And the sense of achieve the and empowerment I was supposed to feel? Didn’t happen. I was mentally and physically utterly traumatised.

The elective section for baby #2 was fantastic, however.

I had four ‘natural’ births - the first I used a bit of gas and air and TENS and the other three were completely without pain relief.

For me the pain wasn’t too bad. Obviously it hurt but I also found I it a positive and - not quite sure it’s the right word - enjoyable experience. I was somehow able to zone into my body in a way I’ve never been able to before.

I got a real buzz that my body could do something so amazing and usually I’m not body positive in other ways.

At the end of the day the choice should be made on the situation on the day to ensure mum and baby are safe. Anyone choosing home birth or natural birth etc should be aware of risks associated with that choice, just as risks induced by drugs, interventions and surgery should be made clear.

So while it can be risky for some people the choice shouldn’t be taken from those who want natural, drug free births either.

As an ex. midwife and as a mother I see it from both sides.

Giving birth is now safer statistically than it has ever been.

However we shouldn’t be slaves to either approach ....many women can and do give birth with no intervention...especially when it isn’t their first.

Others need significant intervention to help them including Caesarean section (DS was born by CS).

The trick is to support women and use the technology where necessary to ensure safe delivery.

I’d argue that most midwives these days do not have the experience the midwives back in the 1950s had to have to manage all manner of issues at home.

Statistically home birth is safe....I helped many women birth their babies at home...including one or two I was concerned about but who refused to go in. As a midwife my role at that point was to remain with the mother while keeping in touch with the hospital.

My own niece planned on a home birth as she knew she’d feel more relaxed there. In fact she went in to hospital in second stage as babies head didn’t descend and she needed a Caesarean section. Both she and baby were fine.

There needs to be a happy medium of approaches to birth. Women have to feel supported no matter what they want. If that’s a Caesarean section then providing they make an informed decision that’s great.

If they want to give birth with no pain relief while squatting in a tent in a field (you think I jest.....I don’t) then while I have to outline risks such as getting an ambulance to the site if needed I can still support it.

Risk assessment all the way.

And no woman should feel guilty or be made to feel guilty for her choices. I am no longer a midwife but I feel very strongly that women should be supported and validated.

my body wasnt designed to give birth
if i had gone any further in trying we would have died
if the Dr hadnt done a section right that moment... you guessed it bleed out and dead
he found i have a abnormally small pelvis and there is no way it will ever be an exit
so that hippy earth mother bullshit would be a death sentence for me i dont feel like im a failure, nor do i feel less of a "woman" for it and do i give a rats ass what some hippy, earth mother type thinks of me? nope, not a one

I work with an obstetrician who has commented that they often see women on postnatal wards are who feel like they've 'failed' after interventional delivery, mainly because NCT has plugged the idea that natural childbirth is the only way to go.

But let’s not forget WHY women make birth plans. It’s because they’re encouraged to by midwives - mainly to give them some illusion of control over the process, so we don’t go requesting sections!

I thought these were initially the idea of Sheila Kitzinger back in the early 1970s, when the induction, episiotomy, forceps craze, as I think she called it, was in full swing. Oh and women were only 'allowed' 12 hours in which to give birth - ignoring the fact that some women had slowish labours where everything was fine. So it was a way of trying to give women some of the autonomy they lacked and stop them feeling a lack of control and being infantalised.