to think the natural birth at all costs ideology is fucking crackers?

[burnagirl]

We have a scandal on our hands. Shrewsbury Maternity Unit.

I couldn't believe what I was reading, but to be honest, I wasn't all that surprised, having had many a run in with the natural birthers/earth mothers in the past.

There is a toxic and insidious ideology permeating the 'birth culture' in the UK. This culture that tells women that our bodies were 'made' to give birth, that our bodies KNOWWWW what to do, that any intervention means failure on our part. That childbirth pain is something to be endured with happiness and joy - I mean, really? Is it some sort of a more 'noble' pain? Something transcendental and sacred and good?

Nah, fuck off with that. You wouldn't have a root canal with no pain relief, so WHY do we fetishise female suffering in childbirth? To me, there's this mile-wide misogynistic miasma around this narrative, probably rooted in religion.

Then there's this totally daft idea of intervention/c-section being a failure. Such bollocks. We don't seem to realise that, from an evolutionary perspective, it isn't even necessary for MOST mothers to survive childbirth. All we need is ENOUGH mothers and babies to survive, so no, our bodies are not sacred temples that somehow magically Know Best.

Can we please do away with the woo around childbirth and just do what needs to be done to ensure that mothers and babies come out of the (let's face it, fucking painful and dangerous) process alive and well, however the hell it happens?

Technology can be amazing when Mother Nature is being a bitch.

What about when Mother Nature is being just fine but the patient would prefer an epidural or a c-section regardless, for her own reasons, after being fully informed of the risks and benefits?

Not a decision I made. But I support other women in making those decisions for themselves, not only when medical professionals decide Mother Nature has been sufficiently arsey.

I had an EMCS after a failed induction with my son and I was bloody delighted!

I had always wanted a c section rather than a vaginal birth but thought I'd get turned down so when he refused to be born I got what I wanted in the first place 😁

I recovered quickly and with almost no pain and my scar healed beautifully. I felt back to normal within a fortnight whereas several of my friends who had vaginal births had serious injuries that took a long while to heal or required further surgery

I don't feel like I failed at all and I couldn't help but laugh when people asked if I was disappointed I'd had to have a c section 😂

The word "breathe" appears on a MW unit wall that I had the misfortune to visit. Woo. Batshit. Fuck off. I wanted to take a hammer to it.

When the pain is so strong that you feel like losing your mind and jumping out of the nearest window, the last thing you want to do is fucking breathe!

burnagirl: consider just how many posters on this thread said they were made to feel ashamed/disappointed for having a section.
........
Why would they? I've known people have Caesarians who had to in order to save the baby, they were usually in labour for quite a while beforehand. Sometimes early in pregnancy they'd be told they needed a section for various reasons. That is nothing to be ashamed of.

I wouldn't have wanted a CSection but if my health, life and/or that of my child depended on it there would have been no hesitation & I would never have been ashamed.

I have seen the cost of this attitude - a woman I worked with almost died, her baby was brain damaged due to loss of oxygen and she and her supporters were left severely traumatised, because of her absolute inflexible belief that free birth away from hospital was the only way.

I have a friend who was devastated when she had to have a epidural as she saw that as a weakness.

My hospital was fantastic. They basically explained that their ideal is to start with as little intervention as possible as intervention can beget more intervention (eg. Use of forceps is more common in births where an epidural was used). However they also made it clear that in some cases, pain relief or intervention such as vacuum/forceps could prevent need for emergency caesarean. As a result, I went into my birth hoping and planning for as "natural" a birth as possible, but willing to do whatever it took to minimise trauma or injury to baby and myself. I got lucky and was able to have a medication free vaginal birth with minimal grazing. But had I not been coping, I would have willingly tried another strategy. I really think the way the hospital classes just laid all the information out there, answered all our questions honestly and openly helped so much. If only every hospital did it that way.

I wanted a c section, I was ten days late when I went in for induction. I didn't want to refuse an induction and wait for natural birth, I knew it wouldn't happen. I wanted to refuse induction and have c section, I knew baby was in strange position and wouldn't move out of it. After 3 days of pill, they burst my waters and induced me. Itvwas horrific as they ramped up the hormone and because I wasn't ready they had to do this until I got to 9cm dilated about 13 hours afterwards. I was exhausted, the epidural and top ups were not giving any pain relief. The first one did. Then the consuktant came said part of my cervix was still hard despite being 9cm and baby was not in right position--so had to have emergency c section. Well, I never! And here's the thing... Midwife tried to argue with the consultant and was saying I was nearly there. Turns out she and another midwife friend on another ward was seeing who could deliver first, I guess a c section wouldn't count in the betting stakes,. 🙄

Totally agree. I was born in 1967 by Emergency CS. I still have a scar on my side from when they cut me in their urgency to get me out.

I'm 52 and it is still visible. I cannot thank the medical team attending my Mum enough. I was transverse lie. My DM's CS scar goes down, not across, and my scar goes across my side.

A good birth is one where the Mum and the baby are delivered healthy and safe. That's it.

This time I'll be having another c section... To hell with a natural birth 👍😂

What I went through giving birth to my son affected my mental health as much as when I was raped 6 years later, how can this be right?

@CentralPerkMug
I don't know where you are getting your information from, but caesarians are of course more expensive and obviously more risky
Wrong on both counts! A recent study suggests that on average an ELCS will cost the NHS £400 less than a vaginal birth. This is by no means the first first study to find ELCS more cost efficient, especially when one incorporates the long term costs associated with complicated vaginal births. As @Zeldetta so eloquently states, it is also completely misleading to suggest that having an ELCS is "obviously" more risky . ELCSs have a different risk profile to vaginal births but there isn't one definitive "best" or "safest" model of delivery. Let's not forget that an attempted vaginal birth can end up as an EMCS anyway.

I really don't know why stating the evidence behind these facts is 'sinister'
But they're not "facts" are they? C-sections are not factually more expensive or definitively less safe than vaginal births. At best it's ill-informed opinion being presented as fact and at worst it's intentionally misleading.

Why would they? I've known people have Caesarians who had to in order to save the baby, they were usually in labour for quite a while beforehand. Sometimes early in pregnancy they'd be told they needed a section for various reasons. That is nothing to be ashamed of.

Well, three posts above yours is a poster who had people asking her if she was disappointed she’d had a c-section...

Lots of women on this thread have shared why they felt a degree of failure, or shame, or told they hadn’t ‘truly’ given birth, and other pressures.

I’ve listened to them and taken their experiences on board.

The word "breathe" appears on a MW unit wall that I had the misfortune to visit. Woo. Batshit. Fuck off. I wanted to take a hammer to it.

I saw an episode of 24 Hours in A&E featuring a lady who'd been stabbed. Her lung had collapsed and her blood pressure was dropping and she told them she felt faint and they were all shouting at her to 'take deep breaths'. She fainted. FFS.

Let's not forget that an attempted vaginal birth can end up as an EMCS anyway.

And for an older woman (the 38 year olds first timers in the study I mentioned earlier for example) an ELCS is arguably the safest option. The elevated risk of injury from a successful vaginal birth puts it on a par, risk wise, with an ELCS for this cohort, but an attempted vaginal birth that results in an EMCS carries far higher risk of negative outcome.

The statistics don’t often enough separate out ELCS outcomes from EMCS, and EMCS doesn’t seem to be counted as an outcome of attempted vaginal delivery - only the successful ones count in the outcomes for vaginal births!

And then there is the underreporting of maternal birth injuries mentioned earlier in the thread.

There are no universal statements on which birth options are safer. Those who pretend there are feel like they are (one side or another) pushing a particular agenda.

But they're not "facts" are they? C-sections are not factually more expensive or definitively less safe than vaginal births.

I dont know about the expense but the WHO recommend that no more than 10-15% of births be by c section for optimal outcomes . Are you disputing their evidence?

I truly believe that every woman feels the pain of child birth differently.
No way of giving birth is a failing. I don’t think anyone should put themselves under pressure to have a natural birth.
I went into birth (3 times) with an open mind and would accept anything I needed for the safety of me and my baby.
I had 3 births with no pain relief at all and for me breathing simply was enough.

Preaching to the choir with me.

I know really intelligent people (with medical training and / or phds) who seem to think natural childbirth is best because it’s the natural way. But for fuckssake women were dying in childbirth for years before modern medicine made it safer.

I had a c section and I don’t regret it. And I wasn’t in a lot of pain afterwards; so fuck you anyone who thinks I shouldn’t have had one

It's also stating the obvious that elective c sections are often caused by high risk pregnancy and / or high risk for the baby (say, heart problems, transverse, blood pressure for mum, etc) so statistically, the data about vaginal deliveries will appear to be safer because high risk (for mother and.or baby) births are taken out of the equation and will be within the C section category. This will include babies born with any heart defects, many babies with disabilities, many twin/triplet births, etc.

I dont know about the expense but the WHO recommend that no more than 10-15% of births be by c section for optimal outcomes . Are you disputing their evidence?

Didn’t WHO change that in 2015?

I totally get what you’re saying and I mostly agree. However, the USA has an appalling maternal mortality rate in comparison to other developed countries. It’s the only developed nation where the maternal mortality rate is actually getting WORSE, and that has been linked in part to the rise in c-sections. There are other factors (increased age of mothers and therefore increased risk of complications), but the increase in c-sections is also a factor.

However, I know that in general c-sections are very safe and in many cases save the lives of both mother and baby. A good birth is one where both mother and baby are safe and well, wether that’s a natural birth or a c-section.

@FromEden
I dont know about the expense but the WHO recommend that no more than 10-15% of births be by c section for optimal outcomes . Are you disputing their evidence?
They have moved away from a target based approach now as they have recognised how inappropriate this is. WHO are quite rightly concerned with outcomes across the globe with a particular focus on less developed countries with healthcare systems that have different levels of resource and expertise than the UK. I therefore think some of their concerns regarding c-section rates are not as relevant to the UK as they would be to other countries.

Of course c-sections are more expensive, my fiancé who works in a hospital and who has delivered babies, can confirm this. It's an operation. More resources. More staff. (I'm all in favour of c-sections before I get shot down for being anti-c-section or anything. I'm just stating a fact).

@firstimemamma
Of course c-sections are more expensive, my fiancé who works in a hospital and who has delivered babies, can confirm this
Has your fiancé undertaken a detailed analysis of all the immediate, short and long term costs associated with c-sections Vs vaginal births? Has he also factored in the costs of the more complicated attempted vaginal births that may end up with significant intervention and/or an EMCS? What about the cost of the law suits brought against the NHS for the mismanagement of births?

No offense, but I think I'll believe the findings of a study that has done all of the above over your fiancé's views.

firstimemamma

But the cost of a vaginal birth doesn't factor in the related costs of treatment down the line. It doesn't include the costs of repairs, mental health treatment, repairs for prolapses later on, etc.

When you start adding on those costs, the difference in cost between an ELCS and a vaginal birth becomes much less.

@MulticolourMophead @Bumpitybumper I agree fully with the both of you and of course nothing is black and white. But people were making blanket statements that all c-sections are always more expensive than all vaginal births and that isn't true. If you think it is, that's fine and we can agree to disagree.