Where does law stand on how behind a child has to be to trigger Educational Phycologist

[Childlaw2014]

My dd is one of the eldest in year 2.

Didn't have her alphabet, (tutor over half term sorted that out)

Is on level 5 Oxford Reading and is a comfortable level 5. Gets between 0 and 3 in spelling test. I've not been told by the school but she goes down to year 1 for maths, has extra phonics.

The tutor I saw recommend testing for auditory processing and dyslexia. She said was /saw getting mixed up and some other signs.

The doctor said '' I don't know how to request that ask the school '' today we met with the teacher who said..

We don't test for dyslexia here.

I asked about triggering educational psychologist, and teacher said dd isn't bad enough. She said... If she was reception level but she's breaking through year 1.

So what is behind in law terms to trigger Ep who then triggers... Ap tests and dyslexia tests. Thank you

Arabella thank you for that lovely post

Thanks everyone for all the posts.

Didiplanthis, that's also v interesting.
I'm going to see how we progress, but I will certainly be lobbying my mp about this system because I'm sensing something isn't correct with it... Suppression, not transparent etc.

Regarding the school's finances - a school's budget will be allocated to the penny for the myriad of expenses and costs that all school's have. Not being in debt doesn't mean they have any spare money.

Ask for a meeting with the Senco. Best place to start.

That 3% won't be evenly distributed, though. So that's not true. All children in Special Schools have EHCPs. My DD's school has 180 children, so 180 EHCPs. That represents, proportionally 6000 children. So you can't just say 'there should be 14 kids with EHCPs'.

Yes, that's probably correct, on reflection. However, you can say with a pretty high level of confidence that it should be more than two - particularly given that the post giving rising to this mentioned that there were many children in the school with quite severe needs.

But, think about it. If we’re saying this child’s needs are so severe that they warrant an EHCP, why hasn’t an EP been involved already?

Usually because in many schools there is a long waiting list for the limited EP time available.

The quality of the EHCP will be so much better if there has been a period of assess, plan, do, review. If the child is already known to the EP service and so the EHCP can be based on a knowledge of what approaches do/have worked, and what approaches don’t/haven’t, and why, it’s for the better.

Yes, but a balance has to be struck between the desirability of going through that process on the one hand and the disadvantages of delaying in meeting the child's needs on the other. And in many areas the delays can be very lengthy indeed.

In the areas that insist on prior EP involvement, it's pretty clear that the primary motivation is (1) to shunt the costs off onto the school's budget and (2) to delay as long as possible the moment when the LA has to start paying for proper provision.

OP, you're absolutely right about there being a lot wrong with the system, and the recent House of Commons Select Committee report fully agrees. It's worth reading - publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201920/cmselect/cmeduc/20/20.pdf

This election is a good opportunity to pressurise the parties to say what they are going to do to improve this state of affairs and, in the case of the Conservatives, to ask why exactly we should vote for the party that has been "serenely presiding over chaos" with regard to provision for extremely vulnerable children.

Usually because in many schools there is a long waiting list for the limited EP time available.

Absolutely. So you’d think that the 3% of children who are at the level of needing an EHCP should have been among those prioritised for EP time...

In the areas that insist on prior EP involvement, it's pretty clear that the primary motivation is (1) to shunt the costs off onto the school's budget

How does that work, seeing as if there is a ‘yes to assess’ then a local authority EP will see the child? It’s not the case that if there’s already an EP report, they don’t have to see an LA EP as part of the EHCP process. So it makes no odds to the LA. It just - potentially - can offer a fuller picture of the child’s needs and what kinds of support have or have not been useful, and why.

Beveren do you know how the system works in FE colleges?

I've just started to read that report, thank you. It looks v good so far.

Beveren you write as if the school has no responsibility whatever to make provision for youngsters with SEN. This is not true. The CoP states that schools must attempt to meet the needs of youngsters with SEN and any support they offer must meet the child's needs. It talks about the need for plan, do, review cycling to try to understand and provide for needs and it talks about "best endeavours" that schools are legally obliged to undertake. The responsibility to meet SEN begins with the school, not with the LA.

You can not argue that schools' budgets are too tight to pay for EP so they should not have to discharge their legal duties to SEN children, whilst simultaneously arguing that LAs (who have had absolutely devastating budget cuts as well) do not have such a defense.

My opinion remains that a school's obligations in the CoP and the definition of best endeavours include coordinating responses from appropriate professionals; and if the child's needs are such that an EHCP is likely needed then this is even more clearly the case.

My friend found she had to go privately for testing for her boys. Cost £800 each but she found it gave them the help and support they needed.

In the areas that insist on prior EP involvement, it's pretty clear that the primary motivation is (1) to shunt the costs off onto the school's budget

How does that work, seeing as if there is a ‘yes to assess’ then a local authority EP will see the child? It’s not the case that if there’s already an EP report, they don’t have to see an LA EP as part of the EHCP process. So it makes no odds to the LA. It just - potentially - can offer a fuller picture of the child’s needs and what kinds of support have or have not been useful, and why.

By law the LA doesn't have to get a second EP report if there is already adequate advice and information in place and the parents agree. Parents may well agree if the first EP report is adequate, so the LA has saved itself the cost of a further assessment. In practice, many LAs don't even tell the parents that they need their agreement and parents don't know what the law says, so they get away with it again.

@MbwaKidogo, I've never so much as suggested that schools don't have responsibility to provide for SEN. Obviously they do and there is not one word in any of my posts that suggests the contrary. Look, for instance, at the fact that I pointed out that only 3% of children in schools have EHCPs; obviously the proportion with SEN is much higher.

You can not argue that schools' budgets are too tight to pay for EP so they should not have to discharge their legal duties to SEN children, whilst simultaneously arguing that LAs (who have had absolutely devastating budget cuts as well) do not have such a defense.

Except I didn't argue that schools' budgets are too tight to pay for EPs. What I did say is that, by law, it cannot be a pre-requisite to agreeing to an EHC needs assessment that the school gets an EP report when the law requires LAs to get such reports as part of the assessment process. It's not what I'm arguing, it's what the law says.

As for local authority budgets, I agree they should be properly funded to meet their statutory duties for children with SEN. What I don't agree with is LAs that don't challenge central government but instead try to slide their responsibilities off onto school budgets or, more seriously, decide that they will short-change children with SEN and disabilities instead.

OP, the system should be more or less the same in FE colleges. Duties in relation to SEN now potentially extend up to the age of 25 if the young person needs it.

But Beveren you are ignoring the "best endeavours" clause....and suggesting that LAs are only requesting EP reports as part of submission "in order to" force the cost onto schools; whereas my contention is that LAs have a good case to expect, as part of its "best endeavours", that a school has employed the services of an EP.

Also, as an EP- assuming what we do is considered useful - getting called in after a statutory assessment has been agreed is extremely frustrating. We then have 6 weeks to meet the child, assess, meet the family, and write a report and it prevents us from offering any kind of extended input over time or a proper opportunity to formulate or work to the plan-do-review method we are supposed to. Real effective EP intervention doesn't happen in these one off meeting for the purposes of completing statutory assessment.

Even to complete a statutory assessment for an EHCP application, the local authority has to get an EP in from outside the county, we just don't have any!

spanieleyes EPs are in short supply and don't generally want to work for LAs where the service has been so run down that we are forced into a statutory-only role. It's soul destroying work.

EPs are in short supply and don't generally want to work for LAs where the service has been so run down that we are forced into a statutory-only role. It's soul destroying work

I can well imagine! The role should be so much more than that.

As a teacher and senco, I’d love to be an EP but the training route looks a real killer.

Problem is school get allocated so many ed psych hours - most of these will be needed to get children ehcp who are very delayed and have significant needs. Meaning not much left for milder issues. Here they wont consider dyslexia until child turns 8. We paid and got private diagnosis from ed psych. They gave school report and plan for ds. We are also working with him at home.

Look up
Toe by toe and word wasp. Iv used these books with my children

Where I work, there is one EP to every 10,000 kids.

The good news is that from September 2023 there will be lots more newly qualified EPs as from the September 2020 doctoral training intake the numbers of places are going up.

@fedup21 - go for it! If you don't already have a BPS accredited psychology undergrad you will need to do a MSc conversion. Especially with the number of training places increasing, you have every chance... as a SENCo you apply psychology, you do lots of multi-agency working, you have a good understanding of SEN and legislation, you already have the key values of keeping the child at the centre - JDI!!

go for it! If you don't already have a BPS accredited psychology undergrad you will need to do a MSc conversion

An MSc conversion and then a doctorate is a long old path though. Is any of it funded and could you work part time whilst doing it?

You can work through the Msc. Not the doctorate. Some places are funded; others sponsored. You used to also be able to get career development loans - not sure if that's the case.