Where does law stand on how behind a child has to be to trigger Educational Phycologist

[Childlaw2014]

My dd is one of the eldest in year 2.

Didn't have her alphabet, (tutor over half term sorted that out)

Is on level 5 Oxford Reading and is a comfortable level 5. Gets between 0 and 3 in spelling test. I've not been told by the school but she goes down to year 1 for maths, has extra phonics.

The tutor I saw recommend testing for auditory processing and dyslexia. She said was /saw getting mixed up and some other signs.

The doctor said '' I don't know how to request that ask the school '' today we met with the teacher who said..

We don't test for dyslexia here.

I asked about triggering educational psychologist, and teacher said dd isn't bad enough. She said... If she was reception level but she's breaking through year 1.

So what is behind in law terms to trigger Ep who then triggers... Ap tests and dyslexia tests. Thank you

I was kind of thinking that would come after assessment as you do need EP reports etc.

No, sorry to contradict directly but you don’t. You can apply, and so long as the legal test is passed, the LA must assess and that will include an EP.

Our LA routinely tell parents they can’t have an EHC assessment until the child has an EP report - and there are hardly any EPs. It’s just another completely made up hoop to jump through.

"There's something going badly wrong in your school or your area, @CallMeAngelina. Nationally, around 3% of children have EHCPs, so logically in a school of that size you would expect around 14 children to have them"

That 3% won't be evenly distributed, though. So that's not true. All children in Special Schools have EHCPs. My DD's school has 180 children, so 180 EHCPs. That represents, proportionally 6000 children. So you can't just say 'there should be 14 kids with EHCPs'.

Legally there doesn’t need to be EP involvement to request an EHCP assessment.

But, think about it. If we’re saying this child’s needs are so severe that they warrant an EHCP, why hasn’t an EP been involved already? Why hasn’t the graduated approach been followed?

The quality of the EHCP will be so much better if there has been a period of assess, plan, do, review. If the child is already known to the EP service and so the EHCP can be based on a knowledge of what approaches do/have worked, and what approaches don’t/haven’t, and why, it’s for the better.

So yes, legally, it’s not a requirement. But, that’s why some LAs ask for evidence of prior EP involvement.

azer I agree : most local authorities have also taken the view that part of the school carrying out "best endeavours" (as required in the code of practice) to meet a child's needs would include making appropriate referrals. If the school hasn't bothered to refer to an EP it can't argue that it has done everything it could to support a child.

The EP advice can also clarify that a child may need special educational provision so helps the case for an EHCP.

I was just about to say the same as Lougle two posts back.

SEN/D, with or without an EHCP is nowhere near an even distribution amongst schools or even amongst areas of the Country. There are just so many complex reasons for it.

Azer - Firstly, we don't know if the OP's dc's need do warrant an EHCP, and secondly your question has been answered lots of times. A school can only have X hours of EP time per year. They have to prioritise. There may be dc with far more severe needs.

I know this is wrong.
You know this is wrong
OP is finding out about it.
People needs to support campaigns like 'Stop School Funding Cuts' and need to question their MPs and Councillors - not just now, but throughout the term of ANY government.
My LA doesn't have anywhere near enough specialist provision (be that special schools or Resource Bases), and the "criteria" set by the EPs - in order to manage their waiting lists (all the EPs also hate it) is so ridiculously high it's unbelieveable, and yet the Authority are still being told off for issuing "too many" EHCPs, even though I know so many dc who really need one who haven't got one yet.

It's probably always been the case to some extent, but has been magnified over the last 9 years of austerity and the ridiculous last 3 - 4 years fannying about over the whole Brexit debacle. Everyone who is vulnerable in society has just been left, because they don't have a voice. When a fmily is caring for 3 dc with significant needs, they don't tend to have the energy, the time, or the financial resources to 'challenge it legally' as someone suggested upthread.

If schools don't get proper funding or there is an issue with funding support for sen children, why would schools openly and honestly high light potential issues? confused

Because teachers and schools generally want to support their children to get the best possible outcomes?!

And because life is a lot easier when you have a supported child with SEN that is learning, in your school, than one that isn't.

In my experience a child needs to be at least 2 years behind to qualify for an EP visit. They are rationed out between schools and waiting lists are long. If you can afford to it may be worth getting her privately assessed.
Dyslexia is normally not tested for until about Year 3.
I would also suggest working on high frequency words as some children just don't click with phonics.

Why is, '' two years'' behind mooted and how would that be assessed and by whom. By the way school sen Co?

Why would dc be made to wait for assessment when everyone knows early, early early intentions are crucial with young elastic brains...

Good point about making referrals, and acting in best interests of the child....
Sounds like a catch 22 though if schools can't afford or get hold of ep who are provided through the la!!

It is hard with dyslexia though, as you can't tell they are really struggling till they've had a really good bash at learning to read - so many learn next to nothing in Reception, for example.

OP you really aren’t listening, what we are trying to say (gently) is that your DD is nowhere near enough behind to be able to access the level of support which an EHCP is for.

Your DD may well have dyslexia or she may well be a child for who phonics doesn’t work, or she just may be a child who won’t ‘click’ with reading until she’s a bit older.

The ‘auditory processing disorder’ that you have been told about (by your private tutor?) is typically a condition which affects people with Neurological conditions (ie ASD/ADHD). If your DD may have an undiagnosed neurological condition, then the path to diagnosis doesn’t start with an EP it starts with a referral from school or GP.

Your DD may well have dyslexia or she may well be a child for who phonics doesn’t work, or she just may be a child who won’t ‘click’ with reading until she’s a bit older.

Agreed. Or she may simply just be a low attainer.

Arabella I'm confused. I did say earlier the doctor doesn't know how to get an ap test.

And again could be wrong but this would come out of his budget.
How would school assess and refer when they don't have seem to know much about her and have never approached me about her.
Maybe she's not far behind enough but I'm wondering who, is going to make this assessment!
Will the school sen Co contact me? Will school sen Co now look at my dd closely and if not assess for dyslexia, which they don't do can or would his, her role be to see what might be going wrong?

It's not easy wondering where all these pieces fit together.

Let's seat, she could be but I'm not getting that sense from her that's she's low attainer at all. This is part of my confusion, shock and what I'd like to get to the bottom of.

Maybe she's just literally lost in a large class? I just don't know.

In my head and what I feel should be going on and what's sensible is not being played out as I take steps forward

Sounds like lots more knowledgeable people have commented already but I just wanted to say, my ds was very behind in year 2, not even meeting R standards for reading and writing, the head teacher was talking about dyslexia testing and then in year 3 it clicked and now I can't stop him reading! He's met all his year 3 and now year 4 targets for reading and writing although his spelling is still not quite up to standard so he gets extra help with that. He wasn't a young one in the year group either, he was just a late bloomer! Obviously it might not be the case with your daughter but worth knowing it can happen. Also neither of mine knew the alphabet order well at that age as they don't seem to teach it like that much anymore, they learn the letters in the phonetic common sounds order.

Anyway, the thread is starting to go round in circles now and that's probably largely down to me.
I feel more prepared for what's ahead and will pick back from through all the responses again. Thank you for those that have taken the time to post

Coffee thank you, so glad your little boy did click in the end. It's so hard to wait and not know what to do.
In my case though the school have not approached me at all or raised her standard of work..

Our head would not put a child forward dyslexia testing.

In an open, good communication two way school I wouldn't have started a thread.
I feel alone and not in a team with the school to get the best for dd and this is why I'm so worried.

In the local authorities I have worked in there is no rule of "two years begins to get EP involvement"

As others have said, schools have allocated or purchased time and they have to decide how to use it. In addition to learning needs they may also be using it for social emotional support, training, therapeutic work etc... so a little bit of time doesn't go far

The reason I mentioned ehcp is because OP asked about legal access to an EP and this is the only legal route

I would ask the SENCo and class teacher for a meeting to discuss your concerns and if you feel they aren't supporting your child's needs then speak with local SEN team for advice

Sorry your recent post posted whilst I was typing and I can see school haven't raised concerns

If you can raise concerns with them please do, ask to see class work, levels, progress etc

Sometimes what tutors do is quite different and it might be that school are not seeing the same

For auditory processing disorder assessment last I heard you need a referral to Manchester or London as those are the only two audiology centres that diagnose on the NHS.

In my case though the school have not approached me at all or raised her standard of work

Usually by this time in Yr2, parents will have been invited to 2 Parents' Evenings in Reception, two PEs in Yr1, and one in Yr2.
Most will have had a written report at the end of Reception and the end of Yr1, as well.
Did you attend these? Did you receive these? What did they say?

Why did you get a tutor in if you haven't had any conversations with the school about her developmental levels?
How do you know they are giving her additional support in both phonics and maths ?

Auditory processing disorder is only formally diagnosed in the south on the NHS by GOSH as far as I am aware. And they do not take direct GP referrals. Likewise GPs in this area cannot access ed psych, behavourial optometry, or many of the other suggestions. Specific learning difficulties are dealt with by education not health. It gets even worse that the GPs cannot refer to OT or community paediatrics for dyspraxia (they will only take from schools) CAMHS for ADHD, or in some instances paediatrics for ASD assessments... the entire system has been disassembled by people who have never and will never work at the coalface, under the guise of streamlining....

Childlaw2014

I really can sense your frustration with the school, and with the fact that they aren’t communicating with you, and you don’t feel they are being open with you, which is why you are now panicking about your DD.

I think the best way forward is for you to get in touch with school and ask for a meeting with the DDs teachers, they will be best placed to suggest watchful waiting or help you set up an appointment with the SENCo.

I know it can feel like a shock if your DD is bright and has always hit milestones etc to have it feel like she is ‘behind’ at school but school levels and testing etc don’t always suit every child, or she may well catch up on her own in 6 months time- but the fact you are surprised she is behind is a big indicator that there isn’t anything going on with DD with regards to undiagnosed conditions, of course that’s not an infallible test, and there would be no harm meeting with your GP to discuss your concerns.

To be honest if you have the money to pay for private tuition for her it won’t do her any harm - from what you’ve described I honestly think your money will be better spent there than going done private assessment route.

Good luck, you obviously have your DDs best interests at heart and you sound like a lovely mum

The quality of the EHCP will be so much better if there has been a period of assess, plan, do, review. If the child is already known to the EP service and so the EHCP can be based on a knowledge of what approaches do/have worked, and what approaches don’t/haven’t, and why, it’s for the better.

IMO, that may be true of children, who are going to be able to cope with mainstream; but its not true of children, who need to be in special provision. My DD was always in special provision and most of the children I met, it should have been obvious from the moment they opened their mouth or they were asked to relate what the story was about, that they needed to be assessed by an EP and should be in special provision. Assess, plan, do, review is irrelevant to children, where the whole environment of a mainstream classroom is beyond them. Its like going to the doctor with a broken leg, and them saying you need to try intensive physio first!

Pp are talking about auditory processing disorder, which has to be diagnosed by an audiologist, but difficulties with reading could be part of a language disorder, which is diagnosed by a speech and language therapist:

www.asha.org/uploadedFiles/Resource-for-DoJ-10-2014.pdf

My DD had a developmental language disorder, leading to a phonological processing disorder and dyslexia:

www.thecommunicationtrust.org.uk/media/18907/communicating_phonics_phonological_delay.pdf

These were always diagnosed by speech and language therapists.

The LA ed psy assessed DD, aged 4 for her statement and then again in Y2 for phase transfer, when she was aged 6y 8m. She wrote:

"DD appears to be showing some specific learning difficulties in her acquisition of literacy skills, particularly showing difficulties in sequencing of sounds, blending letters, recalling letters, letter/sound confusion and reversals."

The LA ed psy also found DD had significant problems with auditory and working memory, and visual perception.

but the fact you are surprised she is behind is a big indicator that there isn’t anything going on with DD with regards to undiagnosed conditions

I can't count how many parents I have spoken to, who were shell shocked to find that their DC had been diagnosed at 12, 13, 14... with any combination of severe language disorder, dyslexia, dyspraxia, ADHD/ADD or ASD; or MLD bordering on SLD!

OP cannot rely on the school to notice if DC has dyslexia or not. Parents have to be pro-active, if they suspect their children may have SEN - because well behaved girls in particular tend to get overlooked in the classroom, while the children with challenging behaviour get far more input.

My advice to any parent, who suspects dyslexia would be to get first an assessment by an educational psychologist, and then depending on what they say, assessments by a speech and language therapist and OT; because dyslexia can occur with other language deficits or dyspraxia, including visual perception.