I identify as a child and therefore demand entry to softplay/nursery/baby swimming lessons

[MissMarpletheMurderer]

My eldest is mixed race, I know she has been 'lucky' as has had very little bullying due to her heritage but a good friend she met at university had a very different childhood experience. Apologies for the DM link but she sent me this, how can someone choose their heritage. And wtaf about an artist getting funding meant for those from black backgrounds as he identifys as a 'born again African'?

Where does it end? I identify as a doctor so demand I be treated as one including being employed as one as it's against my human rights to discriminate against me.

Aibu to think that this is complete madness?

Since when did university fun days restrict entry to only those of particular backgrounds?

I'm talking about programmes to support people who face discrimination/barriers on the basis of factual characteristics not fun days which should be open to all any way. What kind of weird segregated world would restrict fun days?

Slow down and read each post twice so it penetrates. I am also talking about the same thing you are. Societies in universities often have events which are restricted to their membership. These sorts of spaces can gatekeep and even if they and their members do not, others gatekeep on their behalf.

Sometimes it is best to do a little less speaking/writing and a little more listening/reading to make sure we are all on the same page...

• Identifying as being younger, that is.

@ChilledBee - I think it’s sad that an Indian person from Trinidad should want to pass for anything other than their own race, and this suggests a problem with the Trinidadian groups / societies in the UK that seem to want to erase non-Black identity from the Caribbean. My Indian family and the parents of my friends had similar experiences after coming here from East Africa - despite having lived there (and having been born there) for over 5 generations, they were excluded from Afro-Caribbean societies because they weren’t black. In many cases (Gujarati, Punjabi origin people) they even passed for white but they spoke English (and Indian languages) in a Swahili accent, often came from poor communities where there wasn’t any racial segregation between Indians and black people before Idi Amin (my great, great grandmothers on both sides were black).

The Caribbean like East Africa has a proud and varied racial and ethnic mix and we should be proud of it, not forcing people to identify as another race to feel accepted or included.

@MyNewBearTotoro Agree and was coming in here to say that. Disabled people are disadvantaged at almost every activity in daily life, whether it is a physical disability, mental or an unseen disability of either. To self identify is insulting and abusive of the considerations disabled people need in order to have equal opportunities and access.

So you agree, ChilledBee that gatekeeping is necessary and that requires some kind of criteria and evidence that people meet that criteria?

In which case, yes, we are agreed.

No I dont. I think people should self identify. Nobody should question White Yardie or my friend on their Caribbean heritage or whether culture usurps ethnic background. I'm for self identification in the vast majority of formats.

When it comes to Dolezar,she can't claim blackness for sure but she can claim that her cultural identity and values are more aligned with black American culture than the one she was born into. It's the fact that she claimed blackness as an ethnic identity that is problematic.

If your criteria is Caribbean heritage it should be for people of Caribbean heritage. That is the criteria.

If you are just talking about fun days it doesn't matter but if you are talking about programmes aimed at providing support to people of Caribbean heritage due to discrimination/barriers they face then people not of that heritage should be excluded. To exclude them you need evidence. Self ID is useless, anyone can claim to be of Caribbean heritage.

@GrumpyHoonMain

My friend identifies with being Caribbean (cultural identification), not black (ethnic identifaction), it is just that many (including black people) often see Caribbean and black as synonymous. Now for later generations (she is 40 now), there are Indo-Caribbean communities and that is where she fits best but that wasnt really a thing back then. They are still very small communities but the affiliation with Caribbean groups seems to be strong. It wasnt like that for her. She was barely accepted by either Indian subcontinent or Caribbean groups. There was often debate on front of her about whether or not she qualified. I know she found it very upsetting when white people would do this and they were ignorant about the existence of Asian people in the Caribbean and how they might have got there.

I don't really see that there is any option, other than self identification of race. Unlike age or sex there is no objective definition of what it is the be black or white.

@ArnoldWhatshisknickers

Often things like fun days are to promote group bonding and indirectly oppose the discrimination faced by the demographic in question. So yeah, if they are excluded from social activities of the group then it really does matter.... jeez!

Self ID is misnamed it should be called 'proclaimed ID' or 'preferred ID' or sth similar. Self ID as it is now requires everyone else to agree with the self ID person. It's not about self ID, it is dogmatic insistence that everyone agrees with them

This.

And Melroses that clip is hilarious. Jane Fae played at their own ludicrous game. Brilliant.

"looking white" brings you a privilege in life, like it or not.
So to decide you "identify" with a minority, while not being treated by society like a person of that minority, is wrong. Like it or not, to racists, it all comes down to how you look. They probably would be OK with a person from South Africa who looked white, even if they were really mixed-race (until they opened their mouth and they heard a foreign accent), but not a person from SA who looked black or mixed-race.

ChilledBee

So you are perfectly fine with black people of Nigerian heritage, brown people of Indian heritage and white people of German heritage self IDing as Caribbean and taking over a group aimed at people of actually are of Caribbean heritage?

How is that going to help group bonding for those who are of Caribbean heritage?

You seem to be implying I have a problem with people of Caribbean heritage who don't happen to be black being included, when the issue is one of people who are not of that heritage taking space and worse, support, away from those who are.

That is not to say that people can't identify with whatever heritage fits them. But you can't claim to be part of an oppressed group if you don't "look" like you fit with them and thus live the experience of that group.

Stop the world, I want to get off.

Maybe I’ll start to self identify as a bear.

So you are perfectly fine with black people of Nigerian heritage, brown people of Indian heritage and white people of German heritage self IDing as Caribbean and taking over a group aimed at people of actually are of Caribbean heritage?

You're confusing terms. A person who is ethnically Nigerian (their parents and grandparents are Nigerian) could well identify as Caribbean because they grew up in a Caribbean country. Just like those people identify as British a lot of the time if they grew up here. So their heritage is Nigerian but they may well have a strong cultural identity as Caribbean and that is perfectly fine.

Stop the world, I want to get off

Maybe I’ll start to self identify as a bear

I identify as a cat.
I intend to just lay on the bed and sleep 23.5 hours a day 😂

No I dont. I think people should self identify. Nobody should question White Yardie or my friend on their Caribbean heritage or whether culture usurps ethnic background. I'm for self identification in the vast majority of formats.

Inequality is a consequence of other people's perceptions and practical exclusions. When people are denied the right to vote or access education nobody checks identity.

I think there is a growing disconnect between people who understand inclusion as a way to find acceptance in a community and people who are still fighting for basic rights.

But you can't claim to be part of an oppressed group if you don't "look" like you fit with them and thus live the experience of that group.

I dont think that is true. The people I know who are from Y oppressed group but pass as X dominant group have different but still very real experiences of their identity as a member of the oppressed group.

Another friend example is my mixed raced friend (half black and half white) who is very light skinned with blonde hair and blue eyes. The only indication of her ethnicity is her Mel B type curly hair. On dating sites, men have assumed she is white and ghosted her when she has revealed her ethnic background. That's real racism. It is one thing to say that you aren't attracted to brown skin and it is an aesthetic preference but when someone you were obviously attracted to reveals that they aren't as white as they look and you ghost them, that shows real prejudice.

I have a cousin in law who is white and was raised by her black stepfather. She experiences racial discrimination for calling a black man "dad". He reduces her white privilege.

People who pass experience as much racism as their counterparts. It just might take a slightly different form

Benjamin Butterworth, a 'journalist' at prick news, once self-ID'd as black in order to take a place at an NUS LGBT conference.

twitter.com/JoLiptrott/status/1184089718939639809

Nevertheless, he is adamant that Piers Morgan is not allowed to identify as a two spirit penguin.

@Biggobyboo if you want to self identify as a bear, you will find a thriving community waiting for you.

You may or may not wish to google 'furries'. I suggest incognito mode if you do as some parts are significantly odder than others.

I've seen a man, about 40-or-so not a child/teenager, with a (I assume wolves) tail and carrying a wolf teddy a couple of times. Whatever you identify as, there's a group waiting to meet you with open arms...

Apparently a transwoman has already done this, and got this and got their pension early because they are...... a woman now.

Back before equal pension age this would depend on whether a trans person had a gender recognition certificate. The tw in question did not apply for one and so was still legally a man, thus not eligible for a pension age 60 in 2008. The courts decided the tw had been discriminated against because at the time (pre equal marriage), applying for a GRC would have necessitated annulling the marriage and this was why the tw had not done so.

In 2018 the courts decided the tw should have been allowed to claim a pension at 60 despite not having a GRC and still being legally a man.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44612117

I want to identify as Icelandic. They don't mind people believing in elves.

It's not that I want to believe in elves. I aspire to that level of tolerance.