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AIBU?

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I identify as a child and therefore demand entry to softplay/nursery/baby swimming lessons

112 replies

MissMarpletheMurderer · 17/11/2019 09:04

My eldest is mixed race, I know she has been 'lucky' as has had very little bullying due to her heritage but a good friend she met at university had a very different childhood experience. Apologies for the DM link but she sent me this, how can someone choose their heritage. And wtaf about an artist getting funding meant for those from black backgrounds as he identifys as a 'born again African'?

Where does it end? I identify as a doctor so demand I be treated as one including being employed as one as it's against my human rights to discriminate against me.

Aibu to think that this is complete madness?

OP posts:
ChilledBee · 17/11/2019 10:22

Either you are something or you aren't. People of mixed heritage may look black, they may look white neither changes what they are. It isn't an 'identity' it is a fact about them like their height or whether they are left or right handed.

But whether a person of mixed heritage IS black is an age old debate. In slavery, one drop of non white blood made you a type of black which was categorized according to its proximity to whiteness. The idea that people like Obama are black comes from slavery. Being half black eradicates any whiteness. When that has forced you to identify as black for your whole life, you cannot say that a mixed person is neither black nor white but mixed as that isn't their reality.

How you look ie your passing privilege largely dictates your experience.

terfsandwich · 17/11/2019 10:24

Well I’m in Australia and absolutely masses of white presenting people claim aboriginal heritage over here. The rule I think is 1/16 aboriginal relative and you have to be accepted by the aboriginal community. There are significant financial rewards for claiming aboriginal descent

Wtf did I just read Shock

terfsandwich · 17/11/2019 10:25

Er no. No rewards.

Bloody hell.

Muminabun · 17/11/2019 10:26

Yanbu op this is where identity politics leads us. It is scary 1984 stuff. The far left scares me.

Musereader · 17/11/2019 10:30

There is a scene in Suits were Patrick expersses disbelief that Rachel (megan markle) had a black parent and Rachel says 'what, did you think this was a tan?'.

The US looses thousands of black people each time they do a census as parents put thier children down as black, but when they grow up if they are light enough they identify as white.

IndefatigableMouse · 17/11/2019 10:30

I'm very sympathetic to Anthony Lennon's case. He and his brother looked mixed race as children onwards and indeed his brother eventually committed suicide after a lifetime of bullying.

He never pretended to be black as such when younger, but he grew up with the reality of other people identifying him as mixed race. Go and look at his childhood pictures and say you can't understand that.

Whether he was right to choose an African middle name (after going back and forth on a few names) and leaning into that identity is another question, but I do believe he must have some black heritage, and he has certainly lived since he was a child as if that was a case. It wasn't a choice really for him, it was a fact of his life.

It's complicated because sex is (er, ok a little complicated) quite easily defined at a basic 'assigning sex at birth' level, but race is not always so simple. This case above, he won't have had as much prejudice as some black people of course. But he has had some his whole life. At what level do we say 'you look mixed race enough to identify as black but you don't'? We don't!

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 17/11/2019 10:34

How you look largely dictates your experience.

Of course it does. And if you want to set up a programme to help people who look black, fact, by all means do so. Looking black is no more something that can be 'identified as' than being of mixed heritage is.

If your programme is for people who are of mixed heritage, however, those who look white are as entitled to it as those who look black.

If your programme is for ethnic minority groups then white ethnic minority groups such as travellers have as much right to it as those from black ethnic minority groups such as those of Nigerian descent.

Decide your criteria, then apply it to people who actually are that criteria not 'anybody who identifies as' that criteria.

Symptomless · 17/11/2019 10:34

It's clear from the pictures that the man has significant non-white heritage. Why are you upset about it? Is it not enough in your opinion? Skin not brown enough? Nose not African enough? Lack of curly black hair?

Rhododendronite · 17/11/2019 10:38

My daughter's university has recently introduced a 'social mobility officer', designed to represent working class students.

At the last round of elections, my daughter was approached by a candidate for this role, asking my daughter to vote for them. My dd said that as she was from a middle-class background, she couldn't. The candidate told her to go onto the Student Union website, click that she 'self-identified' as working class, so she would be able to!

unlimiteddilutingjuice · 17/11/2019 10:50

I read that article and found it disengenuous and unhelpful. It was trying to make out that the UCU "self identifying" policy is a sort of loony lefty extension of trans ideology and I really don't think that's the case.

A lot of unions will allow you to self identify as black in order to attend a black members event or get elected onto a black members committee. That was in place long before the trans debate became controversial and isn't usually a problem because people don't tend to abuse it. The existence of this policy does not mean the UCU believe white people can identify as black. They expect that black people will go for those positions and white people will refrain from abusing the system.

Rachel Dolziel is a weirdo but her being in the NAACP is unrelated to UCUs self ID policies because the NAACP has no written policies stating that post holders should be black. As they pointed this out at the time it all blew up.

The Lennon chap... As far as I can work out gained acceptance in the black theatre community because everyone assumed his Dad isn't his real Dad (As I do tbh) and were too polite to pry into it, except perhaps as "banter". It's interesting that someone upthread has said DNA testing shows some black ancestry. I didn't know that but it's hardly a surprise!

None of these situations really have a lot to do with each other or to self ID as it relates to gender. I find the article frustrating. It's just a mishmash of different things shoehorned together to try and make a point about a different issue entirely.

ChilledBee · 17/11/2019 10:55

And if you want to set up a programme to help people who look black, fact, by all means do so. Looking black is no more something that can be 'identified as' than being of mixed heritage is.

Passing privilege refers to someone who is part of an oppressed demographic but appears like they might be part of the dominant group so benefits from their societal privilege. Therefore, someone who IS white but looks like they aren't isn't benefited by passing privilege because they dont pass.

If your programme is for people who are of mixed heritage, however, those who look white are as entitled to it as those who look black.

Yes of course. However, people who look either white or black will usually experience gatekeeping from others. Often people who aren't part of the group in question. My FIL identifies as mixed race because his family are mixed with indigenous Caribbean people who have coffee coloured skin and long,loose hair. He has black skin and tight,afro hair so most people would call him black. Even black people.

If your programme is for ethnic minority groups then white ethnic minority groups such as travellers have as much right to it as those from black ethnic minority groups such as those of Nigerian descent.
Yes white minority groups are also a oppressed demographic. Unfortunately, they rarely feel part of general BAME groups and some would even be offended if you suggested that they'd benefit from a group which was also targeted at black people. I know this from experience, unfortunately. They elevate their whiteness. Haven't you ever been surprised at how someone who isn't British but is white assumes that other Brits see them as the same? I've had,for example, an Eastern European person assume that they could share racist views against black people with me because I am white. Having a black husband and mixed kids, I was totally the wrong person but what surprised me most of all is how she spoke as if my group (white Brits) arent as discriminatory against her group (Eastern European) as they are black people. She spoke as if EDL Dave would be fine if his son brought her home but not if he brought my daughter. It was bizarre but this also occurred pre Brexit. She probably gets the idea now.

Decide your criteria, then apply it to people who actually are that criteria not 'anybody who identifies as' that criteria.

But who decides if someone is that criteria? I mentioned my Trinidadian friend whose DNA likely shows that she is from the Indian subcontinent. She looks like she is from India. She speaks like she is from London. How far should she have to go to prove her suitability for a Caribbean group? Should the fact that she grew up in what is a black country and has far more in common with a black Caribbean person than an Indian person qualify her for black spaces?

This is why self identity is necessary. The world is too complex to gatekeep.

Biggobyboo · 17/11/2019 10:59

I’m just waiting for people to start identifying as animals...

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 17/11/2019 11:06

This is why self identity is necessary

No. In the case of your Trinidadian friend there will be documentary evidence that she is of Caribbean heritage. It may be annoying to have to prove her status but the alternative is that anyone could claim to be of Caribbean heritage and take advantage. The alternative to providing evidence is anyone can rock up and say 'so what if I'm milk bottle white, I was born in Kingston so I'm Jamaican' and take a pace that was never intended for them.

That is where 'self ID' leads. Many of the most vulnerable people already have to accept providing proof of their reality in order to access support. Disabled people don't get to just 'self ID' and receive benefits, no questions asked. If they can cope with being asked to demonstrate that they are, factually, entitled to support so can everyone else.

UnaCorda · 17/11/2019 11:08

She's been told several times by black and white people that she can't identify as black and therefore be in places which are restricted to black people.

Sorry if I'm being ignorant @ChilledBee, but which places are restricted to black people? Are you talking about the UK?

ChilledBee · 17/11/2019 11:10

So she should have to bring documentary evidence to prove that she is Caribbean? Like to join a uni fun day or something?

Have you ever heard of White Yardie? He is a white Jamaican. Jamaica has white, Indian and Chinese people in abundance. That is why their motto is "out of many, we are one".

Having to bring around your passport or family tree to prove your identity is not a sensible option. White people would NEVER do that for something less than formal like a uni society. We would never think of asking them to prove their white skin is from the land they claim.

ChilledBee · 17/11/2019 11:11

@UnaCorda

Yes. I am. Groups and events or initiatives which are targeted at black people. Things like uni societies or events. Or community events.

koshkat · 17/11/2019 11:11

Oh the animal thing is already happening too...

www.cam.ac.uk/research/features/why-be-human-when-you-can-be-otherkin

and

metro.co.uk/2019/03/01/otherkins-trans-species-people-dont-identify-human-8787845/

Yup. Humanity is doing a great job of fucking itself over.

ChilledBee · 17/11/2019 11:12

My point about White Yardie (he's a comedian) is that he is very,very much a Jamaican. Even though he is obviously not black.

Twistables · 17/11/2019 11:13

Self ID is misnamed it should be called 'proclaimed ID' or 'preferred ID' or sth similar. Self ID as it is now requires everyone else to agree with the self ID person. It's not about self ID, it is dogmatic insistence that everyone agrees with them.

MyNewBearTotoro · 17/11/2019 11:13

More worrying to me is that the university says people are able to self-identify as disabled.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 17/11/2019 11:16

Like to join a uni fun day or something?

Since when did university fun days restrict entry to only those of particular backgrounds?

I'm talking about programmes to support people who face discrimination/barriers on the basis of factual characteristics not fun days which should be open to all any way. What kind of weird segregated world would restrict fun days?

unlimiteddilutingjuice · 17/11/2019 11:16

Great Post ChilledBee

UnaCorda · 17/11/2019 11:17

Groups and events or initiatives which are targeted at black people. Things like uni societies or events. Or community events.

Oh, I see. So not physical places. That's what confused me!

Melroses · 17/11/2019 11:21

There was a Dutch man who went to court for this. He didn't get anywhere but was really rather good at it.

Here he is on Victoria Derbyshire, which was fun to watch: