How can this still happen in 2019?!

[HowDeepIsYourGlove]

I interviewed for a new job on Tuesday.
They head hunted me, I more than qualified for the position, they had my CV before I got there and were really keen until the older male interviewer noticed my engagement ring.
He then asked if I had a family, I explained I had 2 children and very good childcare and good family support etc.
I thought it was incredibly inappropriate for him to ask anyway, but then throughout the interview he kept reverting to questions about my children. The younger male interviewer was asking about my hobbies, experience, education as to be expected and the older male would then chip in and ask inane questions such as “We have a long working day, how will you cope with childcare?” for example.
I was taken aback and replied as professionally as I could but it was extremely evident it was a problem for him.

To make matters worse, when he was listing things such as my notice period for my current job he actually wrote “CHILDREN” in capital letters and underlined it.

I have since been told I am not suitable for the position and will not be offered the job.

I know this is discrimination but how do I prove it? I wouldn’t want to work there anyway but I’m really angry and upset about it. My industry requires being a member of a professional body and I am tempted to contact them to make a complaint about him. They can request the interview notes, but surely he’ll just write new ones or edit the real ones?

I can’t believe this still happens in 2019. I’ve never experienced it before and I’m fucking furious and saddened in equal measures.

Should I report the misogynistic twat?

Sounds like a twat who wanted to employ a young unattached dolly bird (in his eyes).

I've deployed 'Are you asking the male candidates with children the same questions?' before.

TBH, if they've done that in the interview you don't want to work for them anyway, so you may as well use the rest of the interview as a consciousness raising exercise....

Sadly I'm not surprised. Long maternity leaves and men not sharing out the parental leave, returning to work pregnant again and taking another long mat leave, returning to work and wanting part-time or flexible hours or compressed hours all put women of childbearing age at risk for discrimination in many workplaces. It shouldn't be so, but it is. Until men step up and/or are expected to pull their weight with regards to child rearing, it will probably remain so.

I literally took 10 months maternity with both children which doesn’t show on my CV as I was still employed. No gaps at all going back to 2005

I had a case where every applicant was asked to fill in a pre-interview form which had questions like age of children/childcare arrangements etc. I refused to fill it out and told the recruiter why
But surely this is fine when a question to all? It is a problem when this question is purely directed to a woman.
As the owner of a small/medium sized business, I always want to know the situation of all potential employers so suitable hours can be offered/arranged.

@shearwater you don’t really get “dolly birds” in my industry. It requires a MSc minimum plus 2 years in employment and a rigorous assessment just to become qualified

In future interviews, I’d take the suggestion of a PP and not wear the ring.

Interviewer: “Are you planning on having any children?”

You: “I have no plans to have any children.”

That sort of thing.

It’s up to you whether you want to take a principled stand on this, or if you want a job in your field and then change the stereotype by being an employee that breaks them.

Legality aside - because legality and culture aren’t always in lockstep - in my industry (the hardcore end of IT) it really was the women with younger children that didn’t pull their weight on projects. And that was made all the more noticeable because women were only about 15% of the staff in my department.

Their code was as good as anyone else’s, but they weren’t working as much as their peers - coming in a bit late, leaving a bit early, taking half days or days off... this sort of thing seriously disrupts complex collaborative projects for everybody.

So please - get past the interview process, get the job, and be the kind of worker that anybody would want to have... and let your legacy help reduce the stereotype of women + children = problem.

@Crunched then you should be asking them what adjustments they may need after offering them the position.
It’s up to them then if they want to accept the terms of employment / working hours etc.
Asking beforehand is discriminatory

Sounds like a twat who wanted to employ a young unattached dolly bird (in his eyes).

No, he probably wants a man or someone who is finished having kids/too old to have more kids/has older kids to make his life easier as they'll not come back with requests for part-time, flexible, compressed, go on mat leave, etc. It shouldn't be so, but until men are expected to take an equal role in bringing up their children, it probably will be.

@Pretzelcoatl I appreciate what you’re saying but it’s the principle of it.
Imagine asking a gay / disabled/ religious person to try and mask that part of themselves and you’ll see how wrong it is

Oh wow that's disgusting behaviour for an interview ! the older male asking must have no brain cells and still thinking he's a few centuries behind. The younger male obviously knows better.

You should report it and if that ever happened again your reply should be "Do you ask male prospects about their child care?'

That guy was an asshole. Sorry you had to go through that OP

It’s disappointing and I get it.

But in your position I’d put my career first, especially in a close-knit industry where people know each other. I think you’d have to ask yourself what’s to be gained from “reporting him“ and how it would benefit YOU. Presumably you wouldn’t want to actually work for him, so getting another crack at it presumably isn’t what you’re looking for. You’ve told the recruiter, that’s enough for now. I guess if you really wanted to, an email to HR along the lines of “here’s a bit of feedback” might be worth a shot.

If it happens again address it head on - “it sounds like you’re really concerned that my family life will get in the way of my job performance etc” and then tell them why it won’t. And then walk away and have a think about whether you actually want that job.

Report him. What a fucking asshole. So disappointing isn't it.
And not sure Acas can do anything but worth a try.
You could leave an online review of the company too? If they have a company Twitter feed you can put something on there?

Someone I used to work for freely admitted the first thing SHE looked for on an interview candidate was an engagement ring to try and suss out any plans to have children.

Makes me angry that a piece of metal on your finger could ultimately decide whether you’re right for a job or not.

@HowDeepIsYourGlove

First of all, love the username.

“Imagine asking a gay / disabled/ religious person to try and mask that part of themselves and you’ll see how wrong it is”

Of course it is, but change comes from doing. If someone was, in my opinion, going to be an overall asset to a given company but they had a stereotype to overcome at the gate, I would tell them to mask that part of themselves... to get past the gate.

In your OP, taking a principled stand in the interview would leave you exactly where you are now - not in a position to demonstrate to the one(s) with the preconceptions about women with children. So, nothing changes. Even if it’s investigated and addresses, it does nothing to change the mindset.

You working there and not fitting that particular stereotype would help to change that mindset, however.

That is very discriminatory. Hope you're feeling ok. X

This is terrible discrimination op and hard to know when this type of thing will end. I think you have a dilemma now though.
The right thing to do would be to complain so that you are making a stand and as you said upthread to hopefully stop it happening to the next candidate.
However there is the right thing to do ...in terms of what happened to you and standing in solidarity with other women to do your bit to get this type of discrimination stopped ...
And ...the right thing to do in terms of your own personal career progression. If your career is male dominated and people from other firms know each other you could find yourself more discreetly discriminated at other interviews. Someone up thread said that the younger interviewer was a witness of the discrimination. He may have felt very uncomfortable at witnessing this discrimination, but if the older interviewer is his boss, and he has his own career progression to think of, what do you think the chances are of him being willing to blow the whistle? He might ...but for a woman he hasn't worked with and need not see again? I wouldn't rely on him. Ditto being able to get evidence through the notes. The will produce what notes they like and it will be your word against theirs about the word Children written down. If they've taken on a man with similar qualifications and experience this adds to the difficulty of proving you were discriminated against.
The burden of proof may lie with them but you don't have to be Einstein to work out how easily they can fudge the issue. The witness?
Can't remember the question about children. The notes? No such notes about children. The successful candidate...can easily be bigged up.
Of course if no-one ever complains this stuff never changes. Good luck op with whichever way you decide to go.
Oh ...and play them at their own game as much as possible. Maybe leave engagement ring off. If asked about childcare if kids ill ...don't answer directly ...point out that you've never been off sick at all for any reason and that you in fact have a better record that way than any of your male colleagues.

It shouldn't have to be that way ...but do what you have to do and one day there'll be just as many women as men on career interview panels and this stuff will stop.

Could you go over the interviewers head and complain? Threaten to go public on the organization?

For every business allowing this, there's more that would be outraged.

I think there are a few responses - that's is a potentially discriminatory question and I will not be answering it.

More casually - Oh probably the same as you would do if one of your children was ill.

Are you asking every candidate that question? Is it part of the job criteria?

Either way you can probably kiss goodbye to the job. But I doubt you'd be happy in such an organization anyway and the job market is boyount at the moment.

@HowDeepIsYourGlove if you don't want to make waves mention it to their HR plus the head hunter.

Also in future if someone says "Do you have a family" only talk about your parents and any siblings. You will get a puzzled look and it will force them to openly ask you "Do you have children" if they are that way inclined.

I went to an interview in the mid-80s, so about 10 years after the 1976 equality legislation, and was asked if I planned to get married and have a family.
I countered with would they ask this question to a man my age. The answer was, after a bit of faffing, was no and the question was withdrawn. Once they withdrew the question, I told them that I had no plans.
I got the job. It was rubbish and I resigned after about 6 months.

Just to say I worked somewhere where an applicant didn’t get the job, and successfully claimed age discrimination. It was an older applicant, and I remember clearly that the panel really weren’t keen before interview, and wanted someone younger. They only offered interview as the person was ‘known’ to the company and it would have been an obvious snub otherwise.

They asked questions about the date/relevance of qualifications taken long ago, and the candidate’s proximity to and plans for retirement. They’d already assumed they didn’t want someone that age in the team, and also close to retirement age (50s), so just dismissed them from consideration after meeting them.

After the successful claim all interviewers were retrained and there was a massive bollocking. I’d say it’s worth raising it with the HR dept, asking for all interview notes etc. even if you don’t intend to take it further.

That’s awful. Definitely take it further!

@Pretzelcoatl

"“Imagine asking a gay / disabled/ religious person to try and mask that part of themselves and you’ll see how wrong it is”

Of course it is, but change comes from doing. If someone was, in my opinion, going to be an overall asset to a given company but they had a stereotype to overcome at the gate, I would tell them to mask that part of themselves... to get past the gate."

Not sure how someone with a wheel chair or religious head scarf masks that. Not everyone has the luxury of hiding who they are and it should not be the case nor encouraged.

I know this happens because I’ve benefited from it. Recruiters have placed me because my child bearing and rearing days are behind me. It’s a scandal.