To think that hard hats do put off girls from pursuing engineering?

[LivingDeadGirlUK]

Having a discussion on facebook about this article.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50315019

I think the association of engineering with hard hats and dirty work is a big issue in attracting both men and women to the industry however another poster took exception to the stereotype of 'heels and dresses' being used to combat the stereotype of 'hard hats'. Person in question did not believe that women are put off of engineering because of the protective gear. However I disagree and think that it is a factor (alongside many others) as young women can be very sensitive to their image and 'fitting in' during that secondary school age range when we think about our careers and uni choices.

AIBU to say that for quite a proportion of teenage girls the thought of wearing a hard hat and boots and being outside/in a dirty environment all day would make them dismiss a career in engineering, given the association?

(think this is my first AIBU so please be gentle :) )

Having spent my entire career in steel toe cap boots and filthy overalls I can categorically say this is laughable bullshit.

The claims made in the opening post are totally ridiculous. I expect that most young people, male and female, feel a bit daft when they first put on a hard hat but only the most stupid would base their career decisions on that.
And girls objecting to being outside and a bit dirty? Based on my two sons playstation teenage years I'd say boys are not exactly hot on fresh air. And what about that army of girls who freeze themselves to death mucking about with grubby horses all weekend?

As an engineer (chemical process / explosive atmospheres / air movement) I can confidently say that you're talking utter nonsense.

I do a lot of work with local schools to promote STEM to girls and the main obstacles are not having a natural interest in how things work, not realising engineering is an option for them as it's still largely sold as a male subject, or not having the aptitude for it.

For all the marketing and funding being thrown at the issue it's not going to improve until those white men retire and get the fuck out of the way of the next generation. Utter cunts the lot of them

Wow! thats a bit unkind i fall into that age and colour bracket and object to that thanks!!!!

I'll also say that I started as an engineer before I started uni. I worked very hands on in the chemical industry and wore a hard hat (along with boots, glasses and harness) most days.

I wouldn't have dreamt of wearing pink boots or hi vis because I actively did not want to paint myself as different to the others. I now work as a consultant, mostly to the aeronautical industry, and haven't worn a hard hat in several years.

My biggest supporters were white men, middle aged and up. My first boss was tremendous and I owe him a great deal. He's retired now, but we stay in touch. He had a female apprentice back in the 70s and often said she was one of the best engineers he worked with. I was also treated like shit by others, but I've never been the type to bow down and take it.

Attitudes are engrained across all areas of society, and yes there is a misconception as to what engineering is amongst younger people. It's startlingly easy to captivate young girls when I talk about engineering, so it can't be that difficult for schools and families to promote it better.

All men in my family are engineers and not one of them has to wear a hard hat for like 2 days/year. There are a multitude of specialisms within engineering and they don’t all require protective gear (all the time).
It’s a nonsensical argument. No, it’s not the hard hats. It’s what they aspire to as a field of work. It’s what people around them (family and school) inspire in them, support them with. If you are an engineer who has to wear a hard hat, you’re clever enough to know exactly why you need to do so and what can happen if you don’t.
Architects have to wear them on site as well and no girl wanting to become an architect would even consider it being an issue.
Sizing, however, can be a problem in my experience.
Let’s be honest, motorbike helmets are not flattering and look at all those beautiful Italians on their scooters wearing pretty dresses. Bike helmets are even more unflattering yet it doesn’t put girls or women of cycling. Horse riding helmets also look stupid but girls are still keen on horse riding.
And am I the only one who finds police helmets unflattering? They are but they are an symbol of something important and are worn with pride and rightly so.

Oh and DD will get engineering degree which she knew for the last 4 or so years and never once thought about what she might need to wear on certain occasions. Wouldn’t bother her one bit to wear protective gear because she understands it’s important and she’s seen it close up and it doesn’t look silly to her. This is a girly girl who does her makeup to perfection every day and wishes her part time job would pay enough so she can get her hair, nails, false lashes and fake tan on a weekly basis. All of this goes out of the window when, for example, you fly a plane (fake nails off pretty sharpish). If they are curious about an area of expertise, looks will not come into it. But that curiosity needs to be woken up somehow in the first place. That’s the job of the family and school plus a natural curious or organised mind might help.

Funny, but nobody has ever suggested that girls are put off horses because it requires a hat and boots. Or that other than competing/ if you live in a jilly Cooper novel, for the most part it involves being dirty and disheveled.

It's pretty obvious to me the problem with engineering starts with the stereotypes around school subjects and continues right up to the male dominated environment right up to the top of the career ladder.

It's feeding the gender stereotype to suggest girls are put off because of ppe. I'm sure they exist, but no female I know would rule out a career based on the possible uniform not being attractive enough.

I work with many engineers, none of whom wear a hard hat - they sit in front of a computer all day, whether male or female. We have an international staff base, and a very high proportion of female engineers are from outwith UK. Go figure.

My DD, who is not an engineer of any kind, spends half her time in front of a computer and half of it in a hard hat, boots & hi-vis. She gets to drive a Toyota Hi-Lux sometimes not jealous and loves her job.

Still, it's got us talking about engineering, which can be a very well-paid career, whether achieved through degrees or apprenticeships.

I thought studies showed that girls are put off STEM subjects mainly because they are perceived as 'harder', and their mates arent into it, and peer pressure is a big thing at that age. I think the rot sets in before degree level to be honest, and engineering isn't an A level subject (as far as I know) so I think the reasons are probably more to do with school subjects.

I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, just you dont seem to have any proof that you're right (speaking as someone who did a traditional 'male' science degree).

Also women do caring / nursing type roles all the time, and I'm sure objectively most people would rather wear a hard hat and boots and walk in some mud, rather than wear clothes you can hose down because they're covered in someone else's bodily fluids

I've also had an incident where I was attending a trial of equipment. I ... was abruptly told to be quiet by one of the older male engineers

Once I was organising a trial of equipment for my group in my chemical development job. The boss mansplained me three phase power and then told me I looked like Snow White . I remember that he was amazed when we rejected his kit because the machining on it had left it full of sharp corners which left it painful to use (there were lots of snap connections that had to be reconnected and disconnected each time). I always felt like the one was related to the other - that the sort of company boss who would think it was appropriate to speak to a female customer that way was also unlikely to have given much thought to the day to day experience of using their equipment.

I thought I'd put this link here in case anybody is interested...

The Women's Engineering Society

www.wes.org.uk/

My friend's dd is currently in her 3rd year of an engineering degree.

How much of a loss to engineering are candidates who are put off by having to wear safety hats?

I do a job which ,when i first started just over 20 years ago, was very male dominated, and to a certain degree still is. There are creative and design aspects to the industry but the practical work is mostly done by men. I reluctantly wore a dress to my first interview and the male chauvinist guy who interviewed me was quite horrified and warned me i might get dirty. It hasn't bothered me at all not to wear a dress or any type of smart, business type clothing to work for the previous 22 years!

How much of a loss to engineering are candidates who are put off by having to wear safety hats

No loss at all, which is why we have to fight the perception that that's all that's putting women off, because otherwise all the will happen is the production of a few pink hard hats and then the blokes will all throw their hands and go "we tried everything" and nothing will change.

The blokes will all throw their hands and go "we tried everything"

I've been discussing this thread with DH who has been in engineering for a long time. It seems that the "blokes" (middle class white men) have been trying to encourage female engineers for a very long time. He remembers discussions within the Rover Group back in the 1990's on the subject. Apparently, the company provision of childcare was identified as one of the major factors that would promote applications from women.

Personally, I think the problem starts further back in the (state) schools. I essentially became an engineer because my father is one. There was precious little encouragement from my school and I doubt it would have occurred to me as a career if it wasn't for my my father's encouragement.

It has got to be about career education and raising aspiration. Despite being good at the sciences, I picked arts for Alevel (and quite happy to have done so). No-one ever mentioned stem careers.

I think your right but it goes both for boys and girls.
To be in Engineering you have to apply yourself, learn your trade, be logical thinkers, problem solvers. It’s not all about getting your hands dirty it’s about knowing when to get your hands dirty.
The youth today are looking for the quick wins, instant gratification and don’t appears to want to do the leg work to gain the background knowledge required. Preferring to look it up on YouTube or the internet to get the answers without understanding the process behind it.
I’ve worked in engineering for 30 years and can honestly say I’ve worn a hard hat twice.
But one thing I have noticed is that engineers are undervalued.

I work in agriculture so another traditionally male sector but it is definitely changing with more young women coming though in various specialities but not many in the machinery area. I fell into it by accident by way of a temping admin job having gone down the arts route at school and uni despite the best efforts of a very enthusiastic science teacher to get me to do all 3 sciences at Standard Grade. I am office based for half the year and the other half is split between the office and the field (literally!) A typical field day for me includes wellies, waterproof trousers, hi-viz and fetching blue hairnets with no jewellery, perfume or nail polish allowed. I sometimes get cold, dirty and smelly but I don’t mind at all. It doesn’t stop me from spending the next day in the office in a skirt and heels. I do think that secondary level is the place to address this and also that celebrity culture, Instagram, perfect selfie overload has a lot to answer for with regards to how girls want to look nowadays. I really hope I can prevent my young DD from being drawn into that as she gets older as right now being outside playing in all weathers is her favourite thing along with jujitsu and drumming!

Sorry, don’t know what happened to my paragraphs!

Straight out of the 80s

Ive been an Engineer for 20+ years

One of the products that I have managed in the past, wasn't invented when I was at school

I am the only female in my current team. In my previous teams, females have always been a minority

Why are some people put off ?

My current job description is 10+ pages long, it looks scary !
Shift work
Qualifications and or experience
Accountability
Prioritization
Multitasking
Communication
Team player
Job role evolves, learning new skills/processes
All of these qualities could be applied to many other job roles

Just incase it matters ( which it doesn't)
I ride motorbikes
I horse ride
I enjoy other high risk sports