To think that hard hats do put off girls from pursuing engineering?

[LivingDeadGirlUK]

Having a discussion on facebook about this article.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50315019

I think the association of engineering with hard hats and dirty work is a big issue in attracting both men and women to the industry however another poster took exception to the stereotype of 'heels and dresses' being used to combat the stereotype of 'hard hats'. Person in question did not believe that women are put off of engineering because of the protective gear. However I disagree and think that it is a factor (alongside many others) as young women can be very sensitive to their image and 'fitting in' during that secondary school age range when we think about our careers and uni choices.

AIBU to say that for quite a proportion of teenage girls the thought of wearing a hard hat and boots and being outside/in a dirty environment all day would make them dismiss a career in engineering, given the association?

(think this is my first AIBU so please be gentle :) )

Sadly girls who don’t go outside and get dirty will not build up muscle and bone density for the future and will suffer later on. The current trend for Instagram make up and clothes is driving this, girls need to do sport outside.

Thing is that, having had a job in a school that required the wearing of PPE for my own safety, I found myself on the receiving end of fury from the female head that I was wearing it and not professional business wear and I was setting a poor example to students.

Seriously. She expected me to shift about 400 items weighing up to 24.9kg of equipment from floor to head level unassisted, whilst wearing a blouse and kneelength skirt, heeled court shoes capable of taking polish and no rigging gloves. And to run cabling under desks, stages and bleachers on my hands and knees, climb ladders, load and unload vans in the dark and work entirely by myself for extended periods after hours, in a fucking nylon suit from Next.

The rabid insistence upon women being seen to be attractive at all times and in all jobs, wearing a nice suit, heels and maybe a flattering pair of goggles whilst perfect hair swishes around underneath a hard hat to show 'she's really technical and not just the secretary' is just as damaging - had she got her way not only would I have been minus at least one arm and half a leg, all girls there would have seen that Men wear PPE (because They're Doing The Actual Work?) and the Womenz trot around looking pretty, because that's more important than not chopping your foot off. And the boys would have seen far more of me than I ever wanted them to when emerging from underneath staging.

Please, don't insist that it's all 'You can do this job AND BE PRETTY, TOO!'.

@FloatOn but do you think it has no impact at all on girls making choices for future careers? I accept that its not the main issue and did say that in my opening post but I think back to secondary school and the way a lot of the girls in my year worried about appearance and fitting it. I just think that combined with so little exposure to careers advice means that engineering is put out of mind straight away as not something to even look into?

Recently, I took my kids to a fair where there was a science popularisation stand. The animator completely ignored my "girly" daughter (who likes both pink clothes and experimental science) whilst explaining everything in great detail to the boys.

I ended up explaining it to her myself.

Not sure that hard hats are the main problem.

My DS is doing an apprenticeship under the engineering banner, very hands on and dirty and there are a few girls also doing it, the company is very Equal Opportunities and actively advertise to girls/women

My husband is a chartered engineer and I think the only time he has ever worn a yellow hard hat is when we went to a mining museum on a family day out. My brother is much the same.
I think people are far more likely to be put off engineering as a career by the perpetuation of stereotypes and lack of understanding of what a career in engineering involves. Engineering coverscan absolutely huge range of careers, many, probably most, of which don't require the wearing of hard hats. In many other countries engineering is seen as a profession to aspire to much like medicine or law, and Engineer is a protected title in the same way as Doctor is. Whereas in this country it is applied to any vaguely technical job and anybody from the person who comes to fix your central heating to those who design the most complex, safety critical components on aircraft are all called engineers. I remember a good few years ago now my husband's professional body ran a survey asking the public to name the most famous British Engineer in history. You might have thought it would be a close run thing between say, Brunel and Stephenson. But no. The most commonly named person was Kevin, the mechanic from Coronation Street. FFS he isn't real, and he isn't an engineer!!
This, along with the fact that girls are STILL underrepresented in STEM subjects at school, particularly at A level is why we don't have enough female engineers. Or engineers in total come to that. Imagining it is down to helmet hair does neither women nor engineering any favours!

I think the majority opinion is that IABU! However I do think the image issues of 'engineering' as a career choice are having an impact especially given the lack of understanding with regards to engineering careers at that important A Level/collage time. Stereotypes are bad for everyone but while we are still plagued with them we need to accept that they can have an impact on choices.

Thanks for the discussion everyone I'll be back after work :)

@LaurieMarlow European countries have a higher uptake, I've worked with a lot of Polish and German ladies. Will look up some figures this evening!

I'd be very very surprised if this was a reason that a girl who was interested in engineering decided against a career in it.

Hard hats, boots and muck doesn't put girls off riding horses though, does it?

Do you really think women are so shallow? Oh I can't do a well paid job because I've got to wear a big yellow hat.

Ok then.

I come from a largely engineering family, yet I never assiciated engineering with hard hats - of all of them, only my dh wears one occasionally when visiting the site. Despite that, I didn't choose career in engineering until my late 20s. Nothing to do with PPE, but style in general yes - I admit at that age I was vain and chose my uni course based on what sounded good (and subsequently dropped out as soon as I found it's not my thing). I am office based, no hard hats involved, but wouldn't mind one if it was needed...

LivingDead
You’re reading too much into my comment. That wasn’t what I meant at all. I don’t believe women should be better than men in any career, though in reality that may help career progression.

I think subconsciously I was thinking about myself. I wouldn’t enter a career that I didn’t think I had a chance to do well at, which is probably why I didn’t train as an engineer. I was quite taken with the idea but since I struggled with further maths and, to a lesser extent, physics (and wanted a people-based career) I decided it would be a hard slog for me and possibly not the best path for me. I’m more pragmatic nowadays but in my younger days no way would I start a career path with the aim of just being good enough. That wasn’t my philosophy whilst at school.

Yes well, engineering where do we start???

As others have a said enginering is a very, repeat very wide church these days many engineering roles you'll never see a hard hat and hardly a hi vis vest even. Thats just PPE and is used in most any trade or pofession!.

Things are changing for women engineers I have a bit of a connection with the railway indusrtry and here for one thats very hard hatted and
hi-vis probally more so than most!

Its not that uncommon these days on some construction sites and on the tracks to see a usually young woman lading a team of men and from what I've seen of it they the men have a good deal of respect for the female engineer!

Heres a couple of intresting reads:)

www.networkrail.co.uk/who-we-are/our-history/making-the-connection/a-womans-place/

womeninrail.org/

My husband, dad and brother are all engineers. My son is at university studying engineering and my daughter is going to university next year, to study engineering. If anything my daughter quite likes the idea she will get to wear a white hard hat to show she (eventually) is an engineer!

Yeah I think the issue needs to be addressed at a much younger age. Girls should be as happy to get as muddy and mucky and physical as boys are. Yet somehow this message is being lost in gender stereotyping and Mrs Hinch female rolemodes all over again.

This litterally starts at birth. Girls of that age now were raised in the eye of the "PINK SHIT storm" and on Youtube videos about contouring and fucking Zoella... Zoella FFS. What sort of role model is she? Of course they aren't going to want to get their hands filthy or wear rigger boots to site meetings if they have been allowed to be exposed to that shit for almost two decades.

YANBU
It’s a sad indictment though .
Your earnings potential in engineering is considerable . Female engineers were well received and respected before my engineer husband retired some years ago . Hard hat a safety boots are a small part of it .
Our daughter works in industry after a science degree and has to wear safety shoes / glasses/ and a hard hat sometimes . She rocks the look . Shame it can’t be presented more positively in careers advice.

@Justaboy

I think network rail are a very good employer, I've found their procurement procedures really interesting and am not surprised they are pushing diversity it would be great if a lot more companies were like them.

I remember a good few years ago now my husband's professional body ran a survey asking the public to name the most famous British Engineer in history. You might have thought it would be a close run thing between say, Brunel and Stephenson

Do you know thats a very intresting comparision betwixt Stephenson and old Izzy B!

Its oft said that an Engineer is someone who can achive the same result spending 5 *bob a to one spending 5 pounds.

Now if that were strictly ture Brunel would have lost that one but to think his railway is still there, is still running, but then again Stephensions wors are still around buit Brunel was the one who knew how to spend:!

In Germany, an engineer is seen as prestigious as a doctor or lawyer. Ex lived in the the UK and Germany and there was a definite respect that he didn't quite get in the UK.

www.theguardian.com/education/2019/aug/15/female-students-outnumber-males-in-a-level-science-entries

I have a 16yo girl in a comp whose A-levels include biology and maths and she's surrounded by girls who seem to have made similar choices.

@charlestonchaplin thanks for clarifying I was indeed probably getting too deep but I am really interested in how engineering is sold to women and men differently and I'm really passionate about getting more women in here!

DD is an engineer. Medical. SHe hopes to do clever things with prosthetics and brain/machine interfacing. No hard hats required.
Maybe we need to expand the idea of what engineers do. Its not all cars and aeroplanes. Theres medical, biomedical, chemical, electrical, mechanical.

Its a tough course - 35 hours contact plus project works and assignments.

I think the rot sets in early - girls are not encouraged to do physics.

Then engineers are often taken up into the financial industry because they are numerate and smart and know how to work hard. STarting salary in engineering - low to mid 20k. Starting salary working for and insurance company or a phone company - 30-35k. So we lose engineers from view, from being role models to young women.

So the colour of their hat is somewhat irrelevant.

Whoops! *bob

Used to mean 5 shillings, now 25 pence in the new money!..

@Radusiq if you came from a large engineering family thats probably why you don't associate it with hard hats! Generally most young people I talk to are interested in engineering because someone in their family does it. The careers advice regarding engineering was terrible when I was at school and doesn't seem to have improved much since hence these stereotypes as discussed in the article.

I think it's very unclear what engineering involves on a day to day basis.
The only glimpse you get are "this is civil engineering" billboards at roadworks and new road / roundabout developments. Lots of men standing around mostly doing little, bit of digging, bit of heavy lifting, all winter!!! in the cold, rain, and snow. Not appealing to girls imo. Engineering could more to show what else there is to it. I don't know.