Rees Mogg uses common sense to flee burning building.

[longwayoff]

Or, he would, if he were to find himself in that situation. Having previously insulted the medical knowledge and expertise of a leading neurologist, he now advises ignoring fire service advice, saying those who died in Grenfell lacked common sense and should have left the building. AIBU to say this man's ignorance is an embarrassment and he is unfit for public service?

The cold facts are that if people HAD listened to the fire service and heeded the stay put policy, far more people would have died

Fine, but what JRM would or wouldn’t have done in that situation isn’t relevant or helpful in any way.

The stay put advice would apply, I assumed, to people who might well be in more danger if they left their flat (assuming no cladding issue) during a fire because of smoke in the lobby/stairs or as they may not be fit or mobile. The tragedy here is the cladding first and the perhaps misinterpreted application of the SP policy. The victims are not in the equation for me if we are looking for blame. JRM should not have said what he did, even if he has been taken slightly out of context, it was insensitive.

*tragedy caused by the cladding

The point he's tried to make, and I think he'll not forgiven for doing so clumsily, is that the advice would have felt counterintuitive to most people. Lots of people on this thread saying 'it's standard procedure for a tower block fire' - that's of no matter. They weren't firefighters and they probably knew fuck all about evacuating a burning building, just like all of us.

And how fucking tragic that they were given advice that was right under some circumstances, wrong after 1.30 am (give or take), and would have almost certainly felt wrong to any relatively able-bodied, fit person who was capable of negotiating stairs.

It's easy to say in hindsight that they should have left the building. Not so easy when the stairs are full of smoke and flames and you're being told to stay in the flat. JRM has never been in that position. He's a millionaire in his own wealthy bubble.

I think people just dislike Rees-Mogg and would criticise any remark he made.
But it’s an inconvenient truth that if people had followed their own instinct to flee the burning building at the start, and ignored the advice from the fire service, they would all still be alive.
So he was right. And that does NOT imply criticism of the victims, just of the flawed advice. The fire service was woefully slow to order an evacuation even after they realised the fire was uncontainable.

The point he's tried to make, and I think he'll not forgiven for doing so clumsily, is that the advice would have felt counterintuitive to most people

If that was the point he making, why didn’t he just make it?

It’s a straightforward point. He’s an educated man.

But he didn’t, did he.

He brought himself into it, which indicates one of two things.

1. his ego is so massive he can’t have a conversation about an appalling tragedy without relating it to his own immensely privileged existence

2. he is victim blaming by suggesting there would have been a better outcome if people had been smarter - like he would have been.

Both of those explanations are pretty disgusting

You are on higher floors and attempt it get down. It’s pitch black, and full of smoke. You breath more heavily. The more heavily you breath the quicker and more smoke you inhale. You are burning your throat and lungs and now have no oxygen. You pass out. You then become a risk for others to trip over you including the firefighters.
It’s not the fire that kills in the majority of fires, it’s the smoke before fire gets to the person.
He’s a twat.

It's the reference to 'common sense' that does it. Even if what's said was (against the run of play) accurate about this particular situation, the remarks rest on the idea that people should have known better and were stupid not to do this. When in fact it was an unusual and complex situation, which he's ignored, even before you get to the patronising reference to 'common sense'.

The egotism of the man is mind blowing
Laurie yy I think that's always a fair criticism of JRM.
Kazzy it isn't always 'common sense' to get out of a burning building when you are many floors above the fire, because if building regulations and fire policy are followed then the fire is contained. Some people will also think they should head away from the source by going up.
merry yy policy needed to changed after the earlier report but the fire brigade also have to assess and change advice in response to a developing situation. Their leadership response was inadequate. That is in no way a reflection on the bravery of emergency services staff at Grenfell. They were also put at risk by the leadership team's inflexibility.
Nothing can be learned if people are trying to bend the narrative into good (fire services) and bad (politicians). The fact is politicians; building contractors; housing staff, planning staff and the fire brigade all played a role in the tragedy. If any one sector had acted differently then it might have been averted.

It's easy to say in hindsight that they should have left the building. Not so easy when the stairs are full of smoke and flames and you're being told to stay in the flat.

The stairs weren't full of smoke during the first 45 minutes or so, and were never full of flames..

Yes, the idea of stay put does feel counterintuitive, out of context. I think that's probably why it receives so much attention around cases like these. Because most people equate staying in a burning building with certain death.

That doesn't mean it is wrong - if building regs are adhered to, it genuinely is the safest thing to do - but I think it will always be a controversial statement because people will immediately jump to evacuation as being the safest solution, and not stop to think through the realities of what evacuating such a large building would be like.

because people will immediately jump to evacuation as being the safest solution, and not stop to think through the realities of what evacuating such a large building would be like.

Half the residents got themselves out before the stairwell became smoke-logged - that's around 150 evacuated within the first 45 minutes or so in what looks more like a steady trickle from the inquiry videos rather than crowds, so it was theoretically possible to have got a lot more people out during those 45 minutes with some means of communicating to them. As far as the inquiry found, no one was injured during that period whilst trying to get out.

The trouble was that by the time senior fire officers arrived and started thinking about evacuation, the stairway was smoke logged and the building was all but lost so it was always going to be a lot harder to get people out. Even despite that, some people self-evacuated a lot later.

He's the kind of person who would shove everyone else out of the way and trample over small children just to save his own self. YANBU.

Well sure. I am not saying that evacuation would be impossible, but in most cases it's more risky (slips, falls, crushes, smoke inhalation, impedement of firefighters, spread of oxygen towards fire) than people staying put. Not at Grenfell, obviously, but you can only say that in hindsight.

Which means of communicating to the residents? I wasn't aware of any being present.

A small point I know, but isn't JRM due to retire next year?

I'm sure I read that somewhere, but can't find it ATM among all the current outcry

Why has Rees Mogg, expert in nothing apart from securing his personal investments and self promotion said anything about the residents? Smug arse that he is.
Why not talk about the cladding, the council and government neglect, the underfunded fire service, the condition of the poor?
He has one gear lever - attack the poor, defend the vested interests.

Has anyone listened to what he actually said? No, thought not.

I have. And yep, he’s still a cunt!

I have heard what he said - I don't think it reflects well on him in any way.

Who the hell tables up yabu vs. yanbu's? Will the Yabu's be sent to the gulag in the socialist future you're hoping for?

Maybe a different view here. I’ve name changed for this, obviously because it’s a massively sensitive subject.

I am a Fire Control Operator. I have taken calls to high rise fires before and since Grenfell and luckily every time the building has behaved in the way it should have, i.e. stay put has worked and the fire has been contained within the compartment of origin. There are many many cases through personal experience alone where neighbouring flats don’t even know that a fire has occurred, even the flat right next door. The councils in my area are shit hot on fire safety and go beyond what is required of them by law though.

I am disgusted with how Firefighters and Fire Control staff have been portrayed in the inquiry. It is very difficult to convey to those who do not work in that environment just how utterly chaotic that would have been. The communication between Control and the fireground IS chaotic and effectively we are blind to what is happening on the ground. We have to use procedure and messages coming back to work out what to do next. The scale of that fire was unprecedented and Dany Cotton was right in saying that it was the same as training for a space shuttle crashing into The Shard.

HOWEVER. Despite the stay put advice that I give, if I were trapped in a flat with smoke coming in I would leave, and that is using common sense in the way in which JRM describes. Only you know how bad the conditions in your flat are and that decision can only really be made by you. I don’t disagree with what he has said, he is right.

Which means of communicating to the residents? I wasn't aware of any being present.

Pretty sure it was a megaphone type setup from helicopters?

Only you know how bad the conditions in your flat are and that decision can only really be made by you.

Given what we now know, the point to start ignoring the advice to follow the 'stay put' policy was as soon as the fire started, before it had reached other resident's flats. The fire was out of control within 15-30 minutes, and it would take many people that long to exit a 24 story building by foot. However, how does a resident make that judgement with no knowledge of what is going on outside their flat? By the time the smoke had reached some people's flats, they were already trapped.

Is there other advice from Emergency Services that people should also ignore? A lot of advice from emergency services is not 'common sense' for somebody who has no experience of a similar situation, but are we all supposed to just rely on 'common sense' now?

The stairs weren't full of smoke during the first 45 minutes or so, and were never full of flames.

The fire in the flat breached the window at about 1.10, 15 minutes after the first call to the fire service, and the fire service started receiving calls from trapped residents about 20 minutes later.