To think House of Fraser’s refund policy is another nail in their coffin

[Bearbehind]

I bought several expensive and heavy items online with the intention of choosing 1 and taking the others back to my local store for a refund

Turns out you can only exchange or get a credit note in store

If you want your money back you have to post it back at your own cost

Given the weight and value, I’m nearly £30 down for the pleasure.

Surely they can’t afford to piss customers off by refusing to refund in store - what difference does it make to them?

Very expensive lesson learned!

I will never buy from them again

Yes, ask it doesn't say they have to comply (I can't find any more on that) HoF don't offer a refund they offer a voucher or credit

There wouldn't be no point in stating that "you can ask" if they didn't have to comply though would it? This link makes it a bit clearer www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/consumer-rights-refunds-exchange/#web

"The seller must then pay back any cash within 14 days of it receiving the goods or being told you want to cancel a service or digital contract. Your refund must include the least expensive delivery option but if you chose a more expensive delivery you'll need to cover the difference. Be sure to specifically ask for delivery to be included as some stores don't add it automatically. You'll also usually be asked to pay for return delivery, unless the seller doesn't say this in its T&Cs, or the goods were faulty."

Wow OP I have just rtft and can't believe the hard time you have been give. You are very definitely not being unreasonable! As someone who has previously ordered and returned to HofF I appreciate the heads up and I won't be ordering from them in the future. No point, when JL offer a great service with no such complications.

"Rude" buying multiple items and returning most of them? Really! And those who work for retailers who dock their sales figures- that is outrageous but not the fault of your customers!

I’m not sure the ‘it’s not rocket science’ comment from you was really warranted, Curious. It seems unnecessarily ill-mannered in the context. Are you having a bad morning? Or perhaps you have some skin in this game, and are suffering from the financial effects of returned goods personally, in which case you have my sympathies.

My point was that it may well have been HoF’s choice to separate out its bricks and mortar stores from its online business. However, that is a matter for it as a business, it’s not something a consumer needs to support by accepting less convenience or higher costs. It’s a business, not a charity. If it offers less convenience or more expense, consumers will go elsewhere.

With regard to the ‘research’, it’s of limited use given it only examines one set of expenses, and fails to look across the whole business where a retailer sells multi-channel.

But the bottom line is that their retruns policy is really clear and that s the contract the OP entered into on ordering clothes.

They can't just put what they like in their returns policy though. They have to comply with the law and if the law states that customers must be refunded rather than given a voucher that is what they must do.

The return policy can be simultaneously clear and piss poor, out of step with competitors etc. Which is kind of the point, their new policy is poorer than their competition and so I, and many others, will avoid them if I can get the same goods elsewhere. Which I mostly can.

I’m surprised anyone still shops in HoF, it has a poor returns policy, is more expensive than other places, delivery takes ages, actual shops are full of old crap from Sports Direct, etc, etc

The return policy can be simultaneously clear and piss poor, out of step with competitors etc. Which is kind of the point, their new policy is poorer than their competition and so I, and many others, will avoid them if I can get the same goods elsewhere. Which I mostly can.

Yes, I am glad OP has pointed this out because the clothes they sell can all be bought elsewhere for the same price from retailers with better return policies. Piss poor policies only work for cheaper retailers.

Piss poor policies only work for cheaper retailers.

Yep, Ashley doesn’t seem to have realised that this will not work for HoF. Unless he’s planning to cheapen the brand considerably.

I’m another one who’s glad OP pointed this out, and will avoid shopping with HoF from now on.

House of fraser online is now run seperatly to stores

Basically they are a different business that has the rights to use the "House Of Fraser" brand to advertise to customers.

John Lewis do - or did - the same when I was involved in one of their insurance products They licensed their brand to an insurance company under the auspices of "the halo effect" which they were very precious about (this was 6 years ago) and reckoned added 10% to any item they sold. Or, to put it another way, a £100 policy could be sold for £110 if it had "John Lewis" on it. Also it would sell even if it wasn't the cheapest on an aggregator - people would choose it because it was "John Lewis".

The problem with that is the brand has to be worth it . And if people were question whether John Lewis was 6 years ago (which they were) then I wonder quite how much brand worth House of Fraser have.

Given the rate at which retailers have shrunk their range of operations, it's not impossible that the future of brands like HoF and Debenhams is as a wrapper for a series of in-store concessions using their space and infrastructure. Almost like a mall-inside-a-mall.

Coupled with appalling customer service from M&S, another reason DW and I don't really do "shops" anymore is we got fed up of trekking around various stores to be met with blank looks for the specific item(s) we wanted.

They need to either factor it into their margins or sell stuff more cheaply then. Otherwise there is no point in selling things online.

Sell it more cheaply? I’m not sure you understand how margins work.

Increasingly people seem to want both the benefits of online and the benefits of bricks and mortar. The result is that they are simultaneously demanding the convenience of being able to return to a shop and the convenience of being able to try on all the sizes and all the colours in their own homes without the hassle or cost of postal returns.

There is a cost to the businesses involved in this model. They can either decide it’s worth it, or that it’s not worth it and they wish to dissuade it. They can do that by price (higher costs to consumers), or through other mechanisms (eg only allowing returns and refunds through the same channel you purchased from).

HoF appear to have chosen the latter. Whether it’s the right choice or not time will tell - clearly some customers aren’t fans. I imagine HoF aren’t fans of customers wanting maximum continence at an increased cost to their business, so for them it’s a balanced call and only time will tell whether it’s the right one.

The reality is that we’ll all probably have to change our habits as the current online/bricks and mortar hybrid is proving really difficult for a lot of retailers.

Increasingly people seem to want both the benefits of online and the benefits of bricks and mortar. The result is that they are simultaneously demanding the convenience of being able to return to a shop and the convenience of being able to try on all the sizes and all the colours in their own homes without the hassle or cost of postal returns.

Exactly this.

I agree with you to an extent, Jassy, but I don’t think the rise of internet shopping is all about wanting the convenience of trying things on at home. Often I would prefer to try on in store and not have to fork out and then wait for a refund when I find it doesn’t fit. But I end up buying online a lot because individual stores don’t have my size, or might not even stock the item at all. It’s as much to do with availability in bricks and mortar shops as it is about actually wanting a home delivery - for me, at least.

It’s as much to do with availability in bricks and mortar shops as it is about actually wanting a home delivery - for me, at least.

Me too

If you are looking to buy an outfit the chances of the shopping centre you go to having every element of that outfit, in the size and colour you want, is slim to none.

@JassyRadlett

Thanks for the patronising post. I think that you are the one who doesn't understand how things work. My point is that in order to compete with other businesses that are selling the same products such as John Lewis they need to either factor the costs of returning items to store into their margins or they need to sell their products for less. If they can't do that they will go out of business as they can't compete. They aren't going to dissuade customers from doing anything if the products they sell can be bought elsewhere.

If you are looking to buy an outfit the chances of the shopping centre you go to having every element of that outfit, in the size and colour you want, is slim to none.

That’s always been the way. What we used to do is try on for size, and then get the shop to order it in in the preferred colour.

Now we want all the permutations at once - because that is an option available to us - and we want shops to increase their overheads to facilitate it.

It’s fine for shops to try to dissuade it, and it’s fine for you to choose shops that enable it. But worth knowing what the long term end game looks like.

My point is that in order to compete with other businesses that are selling the same products such as John Lewis they need to either factor the costs of returning items to store into their margins or they need to sell their products for less. If they can't do that they will go out of business as they can't compete.

Well, HoF has demonstrated already that the above approach wasn’t very successful for them in their previous incarnation.

They aren't going to dissuade customers from doing anything if the products they sell can be bought elsewhere.

They may have made the judgement that they would prefer to do without the customers for whom this is a dealbreaker because the benefit of those customers is extremely thin, and instead focus on a different customer segment.

The ‘all things to all people’ model for department stores is proving pretty catastrophic for a lot of them at the moment.

I will confess I have not read the full thread.

However, in short, HoF is now a Mike Ashley run ‘enterprise’ and therefore you can expect the bare legal requirements customer service wise and nothing more.

Well, HoF has demonstrated already that the above approach wasn’t very successful for them in their previous incarnation.

Do we know that this is what made them go out of business? Obviously accepting returns in their stores didn't save the business but that doesn't mean it reduce their profits. The profits may have been even lower if they hadn't accepted returns into their stores as they would have been able to compete even less well with online retailers.

They may have made the judgement that they would prefer to do without the customers for whom this is a dealbreaker because the benefit of those customers is extremely thin, and instead focus on a different customer segment.

Obviously they have made that judgement but that doesn't mean it is correct. That is what people are discussing isn't it?!

The ‘all things to all people’ model for department stores is proving pretty catastrophic for a lot of them at the moment.

It is the fact that people aren't going to the stores in the first place which is catastrophic. The all things to all people may be the only thing keeping the bricks and mortar companies afloat at the moment. The stores themselves obviously think so all they wouldn't do online the first place.

They may have made the judgement that they would prefer to do without the customers for whom this is a dealbreaker because the benefit of those customers is extremely thin, and instead focus on a different customer segment.

Yes, theoretically I agree, but I am struggling to see which customer segment HoF is trying to appeal to. They’re not the cheapest, they don’t offer anything unique, they don’t offer a high-end, ‘luxury’ experience, they don’t offer convenience (see returns policy).... what do they offer that will entice customers away from other retailers?

Sorry, meant to add that their lack of any other distinguishing factor is what makes me think being awkward about the returns is a mistake. I can’t see how splitting the online/store businsss is a runner, personally.

That’s where I’m at * - what is HOF’s unique selling point?

It’s obviously for any retailer to make whatever decisions they like, but if those decisions lose them customers then surely they’d question them

It’s as much to do with availability in bricks and mortar shops as it is about actually wanting a home delivery - for me, at least.

I agree that for some shops availability is a massive problem, but stocking everything simply isn't cost effective for most businesses. For example, if you only ever sell a handful of size 20 items per season, but you carry maybe 150 lines, it's not practical or economical to carry all those lines in a size twenty.

Similarly, people want their exact style, colour and size available at all times, but in a shop that's just not possible. Things sell out, deliveries are delayed - all it takes is for someone comes in and buy three tops in a size 10 and that's your stock gone until your next delivery turns up. It's not practical or even possible to stock hundreds of the same size and colour at the same time. Shops just don't have that kind of space.

You also have stock what's going to sell. Shops run on best-sellers and if you have an item that never sells in your store (eg. you maybe sell one a month) you're not going to stock lots of that item when you can, for example, double the amount of jeans you have, knowing full-well that you pretty much always sell 30 pairs a week.

That's a whole other kettle of fish though and is veering off the topic of the OP somewhat, though it's all relevant to the problem at hand in some way.

As a PP said, this mentality is why high street stores are closing in droves. The time that returns etc take to be processed these days is huge, and the admin that is required is heavy. Someone has to do that. Delivering items or outsourcing to a delivery company is hugely costly for a retailer and often this cost isn't passed on to the customer. Usually with a "free delivery over..." situation customers will buy several items so they don't have to pay for delivery, only to return most of it.

Shops make money in the main from add on sales, and if you're not in the shop then you're not buying the add ons.

Shops also operate on profit = pay; so they will only have the amount of people needed to do the very basic tasks depending on how much money the shop makes. So when it's quiet, there are less staff.

Clothing wise, cross brand department stores operate on a sale or return basis, so they don't receive payment from the brands until they have returned any unsold clothing.

With HOF and Debenhams on their knees, have a think about what retail will look like in a few years time. Retail employees over 3 million people in England alone; HOF employs 6000 people (down from 11000 a couple of years ago).

I hate to catastrophize but the reality is, if this mentality continues you will be left with standalone clothing shops who don't compete with one another on price as there is no incentive to.

Retail insider here. And yes - distance selling gives you 14 days to change your mind but most shops operate on 28 days for good grace; but they don't have to.

Similarly, people want their exact style, colour and size available at all times, but in a shop that's just not possible. Things sell out, deliveries are delayed - all it takes is for someone comes in and buy three tops in a size 10 and that's your stock gone until your next delivery turns up. It's not practical or even possible to stock hundreds of the same size and colour at the same time. Shops just don't have that kind of space.

People aren't asking why shops don't sell everything though, They are just stating why they will often buy online from bricks and mortar stores. It has nothing to do with customers "wanting all permutations" but more to do with the fact that shops often don't sell things in their size. Before online retail they would have just gone to another shop. Now they can buy from the shop by going online.

As a PP said, this mentality is why high street stores are closing in droves. The time that returns etc take to be processed these days is huge, and the admin that is required is heavy. Someone has to do that. Delivering items or outsourcing to a delivery company is hugely costly for a retailer and often this cost isn't passed on to the customer. Usually with a "free delivery over..." situation customers will buy several items so they don't have to pay for delivery, only to return most of it.

Shops don't have to sell things online as well though do they and not everyone does. They certainly don't have to deliver for free. They obviously do it because they think it increases their profits and while they may be wrong, it isn't the customers fault.