to make universities accept an A level at grade E from a normal state school is as hard to get as B/A at selective schools!! ??

[oddjobgirl]

Not my DS - but I've had a crowd of A2 students in my home. One who got what he was expecting and the others massively under. I've just watched the news - what a difference. Some of the young peoples here worked hard, competed with dis-interested class mates who dropped out, teachers over worked, exhausted, off sick for months on end... it's not a level playing field.

I went to Exeter uni, struggled through my final year because I was very ill, but was determined not to let the work slip, and narrowly missed a first. I am now going back to do teacher training. In my final year of A levels something pretty bad happened to me, but again, determination was what got me an A and 2 Bs. Plus, to some, English may well be an unnecessary subject, but as I said, I got 100% on my A level, so I still had to work pretty hard! Plus, if English is so unnecessary, why do so many people lack even a basic grasp on the language?

scienceteacher, my mother also studied maths at uni. She was a mature student and started when youngest brother was 2, middle brother 4 and I was 6. She'd left dad long before that. She got a 2.i back in the early 90s. I am stonkingly proud of her. She had to work so hard doing that, and had hardly any money at all so still took on bar work in my uncle's pub.

meandmyflyingmachine: does your husband's criteria that the student has done something other than work and study at university, take into account those with children or who commute long distances to get there, as I did. I couldn't just roll out of bed at 8.50 for a 9am lecture. I have responsibilities - horses, a husband, other commitments, commitments beyond the uni netball team. Would that mean I would not be offered a job?

FWIW, I got an E in chemistry A level at my private school. Unlike the experience gess had when she was tutoring I then went to the neighbouring state school and got a B without any work at all because I had been taught properly (back in the days when a B was easily good enough to get you into medical school, for example). About a third of my degree was chemistry, I got one of the top few markes in the first year ahead of most of those who were doing it as their main subject. I am now a fairly senior academic. There is no doubt in my mind that the quality of the teaching makes a huge difference, especially in the unmotivated (moi). The problem is that with A level results the way they are now, if people with E grades were admitted that would mean that an incredibly high proportion of the population would be eligible, and it's so hard to make judgements about who's been taught properly and who hasn't, quite aside from whether they really know enough of the basics or not.

Wow, tamum, well done! I quite agree, by the way.

Thank you Blimey, just read that back and should stress that I am now a biologist, I haven't actually improved in chemistry to that extent

I think horses and children would count as something other than turning up at lectures, yes

Am also studying ATM.

He knows the score...

lol flyingmachine! I am glad, because I haven't really finished studying yet (go back for postgrad in Sept) and don't want to find myself jobless, because I couldn't summon the time to join the university billiards club.

Not sure I can add more to the great comments on here, but if OP is still reading...as an A level science teacher, let me tell you...an E at A level means they PICKED THE WRONG SUBJECT. They should have read the signs after their AS level grades which must have been just as low. At that point they should have either made a huge more effort or dropped the subject and picked one that they were more able at.

I feel sorry for kids that have poor teachers but an E grade really shows poor effort/ ability....and even private school pupils get them honest!

oddjob, i haven't read the thread fully but will in a minute.

I went to a state school and a state college and my grades were ok depsite severe distruption which included no physics teacher until xmas in Yr 10.

Grade E is not a good grade and soime students find different subjects hard..including media studies which you choose as a soft option further down the thread.

Actually, a friend of ours who is quite a bit older than us, has twin boys who are now, oooh 18 and about to go off to university. One of the twins was always noticeably more interested and motivated than the other. He was the larger twin, the one with all the get up and go, the sporty one. It seemed unfair, but when you consider they were meant to be identical, william had just the same chances at his private school and within his middle class family as Edward did. But he used to sit home playing on computer games, stuck in his room, while Edward was out on quad bikes with friends, at the library, playing sport or studying. Their GCSEs were notably different: william failed most and those he passed were very poor; Edward got As and Bs, went off to sixth form college where he has just finished his A levels and is off to university. William went back to college to resit, rather than back to school. He scraped passes in the subjects he needed but now works and won't go to university. He probably doesn't want to and is within his rights not to, but has also always expressed jealousy at his brother's great motivation to DO. Both went to private school, both live in a hamlet in Devon with middle class parents, one of whom studied at Oxford. Both have been pushed by their parents. They even both did the same GCSE subjects near enough. But one has lots of motivation and the other doesn't, or at least he didn't until he started working.

I think the 'Mickey Mouse subjects' argument is pretty low, to be honest. These subjects maybe do attract the people who can't hack the sciences, but they also attract those that find the sciences boring. I won't say some degrees/ A levels do make me laugh - golf studies at Wolverhampton is one such - but things like Media Studies are relevant to the commercial world. How relevant to being a radio producer is Chemistry!?

actually everyone else has said it much better than me already so i won't add anything else.

mumofmonsters: you said it pretty well, actually. I agree with you about the Media Studies thing. It's really low to dig at other pupil's achievements in other subjects because someone else chose the wrong subject and did poorly. There are many people achieving As and Bs at A level Chemistry or Physics, so it is possible, even in state school!

also, i did a performing arts diploma at college. Was this a soft option?

Not for me. It was hardwork physically (being mostly performance based-my major was dance) as well as mentally remembering lines/steps/notes.

One persons labour is another persons ease.

sorry i'm not too familiar with the english (i'm guessing english) system so bear with me.
is the basic crux of this question:
should a lesser grade from a public school be viewed as being the same as a better grade from a private school by a university, as a public/state school student has to overcome more?

There is an argument that the extension of the higher education system has made it harder from poorer and less advantaged children not easier.

As the amount of higher education has extended it has been flooded by the middle classes - now the entry level for a whole raft of careers is now a degree - as you have to differeniate somehow! These may be jobs where traditionally a degree was not required. Going to university, increasingly in the current fee paying system, has become to expensive for many.

Where I used to work as a city lawyer, one of the partners started his working life in the post room and worked his way up. Experience and hard work was a common route to success for bright poor kids. The more we increase higher education the more a lack of a degree becomes a stumbling block.

Hope that makes sense.

Yes, whisky & beer that's about it, and I think we all agree with that but to only to a point, Lord Copper ...

And from an E to an A is stretching it a bit.

Well, that's where we started, but now we've all gone a bit random...

not really sorry. is the question about entry into universities or is this a work related question.
in otherwords what are "an a grade at level E"? and a "b/a from selective schools."
if there are any irish on here that could draw a comparison for us that would be great.

hear, hear Kaz conmpletely right.

There is a definite irony that a socialist government has made life harder for a large section of society (usually working class) that are just not academically minded, hence the title, they are the 'workers' and not the professionals. There is no shame in this, but the government in trying to make ALL kids go to uni has made those with E grades feel like complete and utter failures

...rant over!!!

oh ok. then no i completely disagree. i'm guessing it is a universal test in which case everyone is judged equally? all you are doing then in my opinion is teaching reverse snobbery and condescending to these kids to think that they are in need of a hand out to succeed.
surey the point of standarised testing was to eliminate the treatment of different social/economic classes in different ways.

If an E in comprehensive = A in selective school, what on earth is an A from a comprehensive worth?????

(or an E from a selective?)

think...who do you want removing your appendix? or your children's come to that?

Not read whole thread. But disagree on this generalisation. I think it depends more on the quality of the teachign which can be good at state schools and bad in some private schools. You're generalising a bit here!

I got AAB at A-Level, in a state school, which I put down to good dedicated teachers and a lot of hard work on my part. Wouldn't have done better in a private school.

It worked for me and I know it doesn't for others but theres a lot more going on than just state / private schools here

And some of us here got those grades without the dedicated teaching, at a state school. A large part of it has to be down to the individual.

By finishing school for the wealthy, I meant the 'keep the oiks' out howls that come from the Mail and the Telegraph every time it's suggested that, given that something like 90 per cent of children go to state schools, perhaps some of the top universities should have more students from the state sector.

FWIW I was educated in good local state schools, a sink comp, a well-respected but actually crap comp and a selective, private, girls' school (we moved around a lot). Everyone in the last school did well. They deserved to, they'd worked hard. But we still had it so much easier than the kids at the sink and secretly-crap comp. Boy, was I glad to escape.