to make universities accept an A level at grade E from a normal state school is as hard to get as B/A at selective schools!! ??

[oddjobgirl]

Not my DS - but I've had a crowd of A2 students in my home. One who got what he was expecting and the others massively under. I've just watched the news - what a difference. Some of the young peoples here worked hard, competed with dis-interested class mates who dropped out, teachers over worked, exhausted, off sick for months on end... it's not a level playing field.

If they only got an E they might be better redoing a year at a different sixth form and retaking
Improve their grades and then go for Uni
I know quite a lot of people who did this

It is harder to get good grades at some schools, that's just how it is. We need to get past the myth of the meritocracy.

Sorry but I've interveiwed peopel in their early 20's who got D and E grades at A level, got into a "university", scraped a degree but frankly weren't up it despite their s;lef belief.

I appreciate there may be difficulties in learning in such an environment but for a degree you need initiative, a particular style of learning and yearn for knowledge, reading around the subjects, forming an argument on the page, which goes beyond what is taught in the classroom. This is not what you have shown if you get an E wherever you have been educated. That is for regurgitating the bare minumum of what has been taught in class, in a way which may not even be relevant to the specific question asked, and if they have been led to believe that in itself would be enough then the school/teacher has let them down .

I think universities should set entrance exams with emphasis on the 3 Rs, instead of relying on A level grades, which are becoming more and more meaningless.

I know people with A level English, who can't spell and don't know how to construct a sentence. (me neither, but I didn't suffer the course to come out with nowt!!) Others who have A levels in really useful subjects like, oh, flower arranging, star gazing and mashed potato mountain building (extra credit for a river of gravy)

I also think education should be exactly that! Instead, due to this ridiculous target setting, children are simply being coached to pass test after test after test, for 11-13 years, leaving massive gaps in their knowledge and understanding, as all the focus is on how to pass the next test.

So, to cut a long and ranty story short, I don't think universities should be made to accept lower grades.

I think we should start actually educating our children to a decent standard, instead of lowering the standards to ensure that nobody fails.

We also need to move on from the idea that everybody needs a university education. Not everyone is academic, many people are very clever and talented in other ways - with their hands, for example. What's wrong with having the academic subjects and the practical ones?

Not much good to us if everyone has a degree in media studies and nobody knows how to build a wall or fix a gas cooker!

I got As and Bs at A level from state teaching - at A level I think a lot of it is down to how much work the student puts in!!! I did lots of work outside lessons, lots of practicing papers etc.

Plus, university is not for everybody. When will people start to realise and accept that?

YABU, i went to state school and have many A grades and an Oxbridge degree, ta very much

I agree some people can learn without any teaching but they are rare, unless they have the photographic memory type brain. The only people I know who got A grade maths at A2 from colleges had those photo brains or parents with maths degrees who have openly said they explained stuff at home.

IMO you were lucky with your teachers or just inherited a photographic brain. ... did you see the BBC news: only 16% of A grade A2 levels are achieved by kids at state colleges/schools. Overall the A grade A2s for this year is at 40%. The result will be an ever increasing number of 16 year olds choosing media and film studies. Experienced qualified professionals are working unpaid or for almost nothing in these industries. The work has gone to new EU countries. IMO it matters to all of us that our kids will stop choosing tough subjects at AS and A2... and losing more good teachers to the private sector.

What rubbish.

I taught at a retake college - where the people attending often worked very hard. Background had little to do with either the grades they came in with, or the grades they went out with. In fact the grades they went out with were almst without fail related to the grades they came in with. People who came in with B's were often able to up them to A's, people who came in with E's were very rarely able to up them to A's- usually they could get them up to a D. We gave them an awful lot of tuition, and they were encouraged to seek us out to go repeatedly over things they didn;t understand- it was no magic solution. I came to the conclusion that wiith the exception of a few rare cases we were actually often doing a disservice by having people with E's & D's to retake because they were having to go through another year of failure. I did meet plenty of parents in denial about their child's ability though (and boy that caused problems; poor kids).

Incidentally went to Oxford (from a state school) and there were plenty of very bright people from public schools- who were there because they were bright.

Agree that some state schools are not providing a good education (although the year I went to Oxford, 7 of us got in from our state school- and the school provided extra lessons etc etc). But the issue is rising standards in state school, not expecting universities to drop their admission criteria.

Agree GDG- university is not for everyone. My poor cousin is getting it in the neck this morning for getting CDD at A level. First question I aksed was 'what is he capable of?'. If that reflects his abilities then fair enough, be happy for his achievement.

Talking about elitism... The thing I find marvellous of the British univerities system is that all charge the same and your attendance to the better ones, or even to one of them depends solely in your own performance. You don't even need to find the funds to finance the more expensive fees better universities do charge in other countries and have plenty of funding oportunities. That to me seems quite fair! Now if you don't manage to get the grade, it is not only because the teachers were bad, but also because you failed to put the extra work to pull yourself through.

Signs here another one who attended an average/nothing brilliant state school and ended up graduating with distinction from one of the best departments in the country.

I well I'm off to do some mashed potato architecture. So pleased DD is not going for science options. Please speak kindly to the 84% of state school kids who didn't get A grades this year but mega applause to the 16% who did.

But if everyone got an A the system would be meaningless, no?

At our university there would be two routes for someone with E's at Alevel and who was determined to go to uni....sometimes it is their parents and not the student themselves.

Foundation degree for a year as a taster and then use the credits at the end of the year to transfer to the degree programme if they have passed enough. This take account of the fact that some student mature later, especially boys and don't realise that studying and university may be important in later life.
The second option is an HND programme which at the end of the 2 years they can then do a top up to a degree in 3 semesters. This means that they take the degree at an easier pace but have the option of leaving after 2 years with a recognise qualification. they are taught in distinct groups and given extra support.

All is not lost!

The thick kids at my comprehensive and those who did no work got Es.

Those of us with brains who pulled our fingers out got As and Bs and are now Doctors, lawyers and even University Lecturers. Our teachers were easily as good as the ones at the Private school and enjoyed teaching the A level students.

My brother on the other hand went to 6th form college, a brand new experiment which didn't suit him and he still managed to get grades for university.

Unless things have changed in some way I am not aware of then I don't think I can agree with the OP, although I sympathise with not getting what you expected.

Oddjobgirl, following in the vein mentioned by Gess about focusing on what the child is capable of, I'm copying this from another thread I posted in a while ago:

I don't think that unversity is for everyone, but before somebody comes and shot me up in flames, let me explain myself better:

I have always believed that the main problem with higher education success may lay in making us believe that attending university = success. Well, it's not, first because being economically succesful won't necessary make us happier and, there is no guarantee that having a degree will get you a well paid job or even one in the subject you studied at Uni.

I believe that some people may be happier with more "intellectually-demanding" jobs, while some others would appreciate an easy going pace that allow them to do things they enjoy more. The problem then is, IMO, the misconstrued idea that you are a failure if you don't attend university.

I was a lecturer in my past life and I saw many students who were brilliant, mostly because they had chosen their subject to fit well with their own characteristics rather than because they were genious of some sort.

There were many others there, though, that were there for the "money", the status or because that was the right thing to do. Some of the these were good students, some were good through hard work and some were failing at it.

I have the deep belief that this last failing group was not stupid at all, they were just pursuing the wrong career. These people could have been very happy and successful in other areas, even in those that don't require a degree, but by choosing to go that route they ended up frustrated and most failed to secure a job in the area anyway.

I think this is a disgrace, not because of the waste of economical resources invested in schooling that person, but because the outcome of it was to make an otherwise capable person feel like a failure, an idea of themselves that may be with them trough the end of their lives. That's a waste!

So, yes, I would preffer DS to be a toilet cleaner if that makes him happy, rather than a graduate of a subject that makes him feel misserable about his work. And although I apreciate that being told he is not good enough for what he wants to be would be painful, it would be worse to let him carry up with the wokr without the faintest idea that he is very likely to fail at it.

There are universities that discriminate against private school students. Bristol is one. Will they take the E's? Doubt it.

I don't think a-level results are always a good indicator of academic performance - I got truly dreadful A level results thanks to being very lazy and immature, but did well in my degree (2:1 in law, just missed a 1st) and also managed a distinction in my postgrad qualification.
I'd say that there are plenty of 18 year olds who still have some growing up to do...

I went to state school, a very modest one because my mother teaches there. The school wasn't a bad one, but teachers were stretched, supply was often, stress high among teachers, absenteeism high among teachers.

I got 100% on my English Lit/Lang A level and the work was published in a guide, and my head of faculty English teacher, used it at English teaching conferences. I probably had/have a gift in that area, but it's one that had to be nurtured out of me. So I got an A at A level English, B at Geography and B at French. I did 2 AS levels - one in Geology and one in ICT and got Bs in both.

I'm not a genius or anything close, and my talent/brightness/whatever, though partly nature, had to be nurtured by those state school teachers over the years, by my mum, and by my own hard work. I got average GCSE grades and decided then that I would work bloody hard in years 12 and 13. Some others with a natural ability, like I would say I had/have, didn't do so well because they treated it as another 2 years before they had to go out and find proper work/leave home. I will get shot down for this, but I actually think only those with a natural ability that is capable of being nurtured and developed, should study at university level. I didn't get good grades in a state school because I naturally know everything; I am receptive to knowledge, probably have the natural ability, but also worked hard, studied hard and got very stressed trying to up my grades. As I said, there were those with my ability who slinked around, not going to lessons, not using the study in frees... They didn't get such good grades, and if that means they can't get into university then it's their fault.

Those without the natural ability would possibly find university difficult, and there are other routes for them to take. I truly believe that only the most academically able should go to university. Other young people are able in other areas; my husband does things I could never do, but he isn't an academic. I just don't think everyone should go to university just because they have a right to.

My mum is a teacher, but I come from a single parent family where money was in short supply, lots of horrible things going on at home. It didn't stop me. It probably actually made me want to work harder to get away from all that.

And those who get into uni despite poor A level results, and then do well on their degree, will have worked hard on that degree. So it all levels out in the end. In a way, university is a completely new leaf when it comes to knowledge and learning. I was told by unis not to study psychology A level if I wanted to study it at uni, because they like a blank sheet.

Your first year at uni is there so that they can fill you with knowledge about your chosen subject; and at the end of that year, if people haven't reached the grade then they are usually turfed out. So there are chances, and it isn't always the end of the world if results aren't as expected. People might be ill during exams or something. Unis will take that into account when offering a place after results.

Some courses will take people with lower A Level grades, just depends on what they want to do.

But it's not fair to dsay that pupils are state school don't/can't get good grades, as it isn't true. My sister finished her A levels a few years ago now and got 3As and 2Bs. This was most definitely not at a great school either, just through hard work and determination. I know of a young man this year who is at state school and who has 2As and 2Bs. TBH I only know one privately educated person's A level results and although they are very good, so are many of the other people's grades I know from state schools.

Yes, private schools can help boost exam results, but to say that a child from state school's grade E is the same as a private school pupil's grade A is simply not true IME.

And don't forget foundation degrees/entry level degrees.

Agree with gdg that uni doesnlt suit everyone and nor should it. It is held up as the ultimate route to financial success but many of those who scrape in drop out when reality bites. imho no favours were done when poly's became unis as it has led to a blurring of the type of courses may suit particular candidates. Employers these days also look at the institution much as they used to re: Oxbridge, campus, redbricks etc and then make a judgement about the likely calibre of a candidates's qualifications.

Thing is, it's all very well saying 'Oh, I went to a state school and got As or Bs'. The kids the OP is talking about have been to a school that has failed them, with erratic teaching.

The main difference I have found between state and private, during my studies and work experience, and my working life so far, is the level of determination from pupils. Pupils in private usually come from very good backgrounds, where they are encouraged and have good role models (for jobs) that they want to aspire to - maybe parents that are doctors or lawyers. There are those in state schools that also come from these backgrounds, but they are very few. Of course there are parents who send to state schools that push their children hard, are good role models, provide well at home. But there are also lots of children that come from poor backgrounds which doesn't help. I don't know what I am trying to say or how I am trying to say it, but I do think there's less apathy among private school pupils.

I actually though some of the unis now had a bias against selective or private schools, to encourage fairness etc?

When I took A's only the top X% of the exam boards in the whole country got and A, the next X% got a B etc. So it was not possible for such large amounts of students to get top grades.