to make universities accept an A level at grade E from a normal state school is as hard to get as B/A at selective schools!! ??

[oddjobgirl]

Not my DS - but I've had a crowd of A2 students in my home. One who got what he was expecting and the others massively under. I've just watched the news - what a difference. Some of the young peoples here worked hard, competed with dis-interested class mates who dropped out, teachers over worked, exhausted, off sick for months on end... it's not a level playing field.

I still believe that ended up well educated doesn't depend in the school alone.

McEdam, as I said in my post, my school was no better. Teachers would miss lessons as much as some of the form sixers. Teacher absenteeism wasn't always dealt with for years 12 and 13 as it was always thought we could get on with study in the room/library provided for us.

And not all of the teachers were that good, either. One we had was just so fed up with teaching that even we could see it. I think it was him sitting at his desk, head in his hands, falling asleep! He was coming up for retirement.

Exactly, fiofio. But universities aren't really non-academic institutions. There are other routes for those less academic. My husband took one such route and is very successful at what he does; I could NOT do what he does.

Poly courses were often less academic but produced a high level of education in those speicialist fields. By converting everyone now aspires to Uni or nowt. Isabel is right , at higher levels of education there is much more to education that what is taught in school, but pupils need to be made aware of what is demanded. This may being done better by some schools/colleges than others.

I agree both with the OP that it's terribly unfair, and also with other posters that the problem needs to be addressed BEFORE university admission becomes an issue.

I'm a university lecturer, and to a certain extent (how far varies a lot between institutions, and between departments/degree programmes within institutions) universities DO recognise that where a prospective student was educated may have a bearing on their A-level results.

But that can only get an under-achieving student so far. Where I work, it might mean a student from one of the local schools we work with to raise expectations and widen participation in HE getting an offer of BBB instead of AAA (for example). Not much lower than that, though. A student with Es would not be able to provide us with the evidence of commitment, willingness to take on independent study, and initiative as well as basic intellectual ability that we need to give us confidence that they would be capable of completing the degree course successfully.

And we know from experience that there's no point giving places to people who aren't up to it: they drop out, they feel disappointed and frustrated and have wasted time and money, and other students who could have taken their place are also disappointed and frustrated.

I do feel for the young people you're talking about though oddjobgirl. It really isn't a level playing field, I absolutely agree. Just to put a different point of view: some of the students who struggle most in my dept are those who went to expensive private schools where they were very efficiently coached through A-levels, so have good grades, but don't have the smarts to make the transition to university work where more intellectual independence is required.

As with everything else, I believe you get out of something what you put into it.

IE: The work isn't put in, they don't get a good grade.

But, what I'd like to know

Hi firefly! [hijacks and waves]

Absolutely what Isabel just said.

Firefly, I too ignored my education at a young age, left school with no GCSE's even though I was probably one of the cleverer people in my class. I later sat an access course, which I passed easily but I saw, as I'm sure you probably did, many people on the same course working themselves to the bone to pass, they passed, and rightly so, but some still wouldn't have coped very well at university.
Not everyone has the ability for academic achievement, but everyone has the ability for success.

hee hee, firefly, remember we were saying 'let's meet every month'! I so knew we wouldn't get round to that! Maybe a christmas meet up will be the thing.

Lots of universities, including the one I work at, look at the predicted (or actual grades depending on when the applicant applies)and then compare it to the school's average A Level points score and take that into consideration as part of the application process.

I think that is such a great development. My cousin has just got 3 As from a deprived school in Newham where he got bullied for 5 years and there were police outside the school gates every single day. To me that is a FAR greater achievement than someone who gets 3 As from a nice little fee paying school where class sizes are small and parental aspirations are already sky high. Guess the fee paying parents wouldn't like it though - kind of negates their £5K a term to get their precious kid into a russell group uni! My cousin is going to go to King's College London btw. Am very proud of him.

Also, I don't think it is fair to complain about children at private schools, I have a friend at cheltenham ladies college whose parents work extremely hard to send her there, and she works just as hard to achieve her grades. Should someone who doesn't work as hard and therefore only achieves E/U grades be given her place at university because her parents paid for her education???

Motivation is the key it really is. My son(16) is very bright but he just doesn't give a fart and does the bare minimum.
At the moment I'm trying a subtle tactic.... I keep saying to him not to bother with A levels and give him alternative ideas. He has started insisting he stay on for A levels now
Next I'll be saying to him not to bother with university......

oddjobgirl: Feel so sorry for the two young men you mentioned.

I think you have a fair point about the level of science and maths teaching in state schools generally and obviously at your dds school in particular. I think this is why mathematics graduates are given more financial help to take PGCE than graduates in other subjects? (talking mature students here) However neither of the guys you mention seem to have got more than a D in anything? What other subjects did they take?

You say they got good GCSE results but there always used to be a big leap between the O and A levels (not sure if that still holds true?) I know my DH got 11 very good O levels without doing a scrap of work and bunking off lessons. He thought he could do the same with his A levels and got pulled up short when he got C, D and an O level pass (= to U today).

I agree and sympathise that lack of continuity of teaching doesn't help at all and can leave some children very demotivated.

We have had something similar with DD1 at GCSE in that she had five different maths teachers in three years (and this at a private school) and I think it has definitley affected her performance in this subject. We shall see next week - [nervous, biting nails emoticon].

I am sure that the young men in question will be able to access a degree course eventually through the channels already mentioned if that is what they really want, but I too am worried about the current trend to almost expect every 18 year-old to go to university. (And write them off as obviously thick if they don't.)

University education just isn't the right thing for the vast majority of people and, now that there is so little financial help for students, it concerns me that so many young people are saddled with huge debts incurred whilst obtaining a middling degree in a subject which isn't necessarily going to get them a higher paid job in the work place anyway.

All this because we have reached a stage in society where we more or less write people off as failures if they haven't been to university.

A lot of private schools are selective schools, so it is no surprise they are getting 100% pass rates. My own DS's school has a 58% A rate. TBH, as much as this comes from the fact that the kids are bright to begin with. Therefore, factoring the achievement vs the achievement of the rest of their school doesn't make a lot of sense.

i have only read op but TBH the exam are all the same. I understand that some children don't get the oportunities that others do. and I know that mostly the best teachers go to the best schools so therefore the children in most need of teaching get the worst teachers. BUT that is the issue. THe government need to make changes so that those in need of good teachers get the help they need.

I also don't actually think that everyone needs to go to uni. So many people go and get a degree and cannot get a job.

Some people are better off going into as trade at 16/18 and learning on the job.

The whole culture of children thinking they must go to uni is silly. And is the reason why tradesmen/women are so thin on the ground. In a few years time you'll struggle to find an electrician or plumber and any you do find will be expensive because they are in the minority and can charge what they like.

I'd like to know when those saying 'Oh, I went to state school and got good grades' were at school.

I went to a state comp but the standards have been steadily dropping, IMO, in the last two decades.

haven't read whole thread - but from the OP i think they should accept they have to re-take their A levels, go to a FE college and get on with it.

tbh i think universities are more lenient with pupils from state schools where their grades fall just below what's required.

when i went to uni (Durham) from a (good but non selective) state school, everyone on my course seemed to have 3,4 or 5 A grade A levels. However, after the first term everyone sits an exam and the results were eye opening - their knowledge was no better than mine, they were just far better prepared (spoon-fed?) for the A levels. Many of them failed the exam, the first they had ever failed in their lives.

Haven't read whole thread yet so apologies if I repeat anything but so at some of the comments here!

I went to a very average comprehensive, worked my backside off, got good grades, went to a top university - a finishing school for the wealthy? I supported myself by working evenings and weekends in a pub, ffs. And now I teach English - glad to know that my subject is 'unwanted', 'easy' and of 'zip value'.

FFS. I'm off to maintain my fiefdom with the rest of the middle and upper classes