AIBU to suggest that you aren't really an animal lover if you're not a vegan

[KylieKoKo]

I'm a meateater but I was chatting to a vegan friend of mine about this and I think she has a point. It makes no sense to call yourself an animal lover if you pay others to kill animals or take their milk and eggs when its perfectly possible to live without them. I couldn't help but agree with her, and, as a non-vegan, had to conceed that I don't really love animals. In fact, I'm putting the fact that they taste nice above their lives and well-being on a daily basis.

I thought it would be interesting to see if anyone on here had an argument against this.

@Velveteenfruitbowl
90% of B12 supplements around the world are fed to livestock. Naturally occurring B12 is produced via bacteria found in consumption of water and soil which animals digest and which then gets converted to B12 in their gut. Because of the poor quality of soil now due to over intensive farming, NOBODY would get enough B12 without supplements. Furthermore, your claim that a vegan diet cannot proved adequate nutrition is complete scientifically debunked nonsense. There is nothing in meat that cannot be replicated through plant based diet, usually much more efficiently. The only exception to this is that children below two years of age should consume milk from their human mother, if possible.

I seriously suggest you watch The Game Changers, a new documentary on Netflix, as a start to analyse some of your seriously outdated assumptions about the desirability of consumption of animal products.

When I say nobody would get enough B12 without supplements, of course I mean either via supplements provided to livestock, or supplements as taken directly by a human. In centuries and millennia past, a plant based diet would of course have provided sufficient B12 directly.

I don’t eat meat any more but I do eat eggs and cheese. My eggs come from my chickens which free range in the back garden. They seem happy enough. They have a life of luxury with their eglu cube hen house and their big walk in run which I attached to their 20ftx20ft outdoor run so they can have lots of shelter when it rains.

"As long as they live good, high welfare standard lives and have a humane, compassionate death then I have no issue. Of course, some would say that it’s wrong to kill animals at all but that’s not a view I share as long as they don’t suffer."

Yes because it's absolutely humane and they definitely don't suffer, when pigs are often exsanguinated half conscious, hanging upside down. I don't understand how you can consider killing a sentient being humane or an excellent welfare case.

'We evolved to eat meat' Great - That explains how so many vegans and vegetarians are still alive without meat really doesn't it.

As for 'There would be no cows etc.' Since when did the UK have apex predators that could take down Cows, and pigs? Oh that's right we don't....

There are holes in the omnivorous argument the size of Britain. I always find the carnist blinkers funny.

"As long as they live good, high welfare standard lives and have a humane, compassionate death then I have no issue. Of course, some would say that it’s wrong to kill animals at all but that’s not a view I share as long as they don’t suffer."

Would you take the same view of innocent humans were to be killed?....as long as they're not suffering....

I’m happy with the concept of being a part of the food chain.

I would agree that anyone professing to be an animal lover should take responsibility for ensuring as much as possible the highest standards of welfare for the animal products they consume but concede that can be difficult these days given how far removed the consumer is from the source.

I like the idea from some religions that hold a ritual, say a prayer or thank the animal because it’s a need and process that should be done with respect and with the intent to minimise any suffering.

In a survival scenario I’m not sure I have it in me to kill my own meat so accept that I’m also a hypocrite. Although I could happily survive on seagulls if I could catch them because fuck them.

I think vegan pet owners are the biggest hypocrites.
It is ok to slaughter an animal to food your pussy or pooch.
My Dsis and her pals go on and on about the ethical vegan crap, yet they give their DC meat and buy a cows milk. Feed their pets meat.
I know it isn't great to feed a pet or DC vegan products only.
Practice what you preach.

Are many people really 'animal lovers' though? As in every single animal? Most people who i have heard say it mean loving dogs, cats, rabbits, pets essentially. Most of the love from them doesn't extend to not so cute and pet like animals, farm ones for example. Except the baby versions that is.

It's interesting as my vegetarian friend said this the other day, she eats plenty of cheese and eggs etc, so i guess she'd not be a lover then either.

Its over simplification to say nothing was slaughtered on my plate to provide my vegan diet therefore I am an animal lover. All you terrible omnivores can't possibly be. I would consider myself an animal lover, but I accept that meat is part of many people's diets. Therefore i'd like that meat to be reared and slaughtered to the highest welfare standards. The lamb we eat is reared on permanent pasture, with minimal stress, very occasional worming as needed and no supplements. It's slaughtered 4miles away in a small family run abattoir, delivered there by the farmer. All handling is gentle and stress free. Animals are properly stunned prior to slaughter. It has 8 food miles. The fields have thick hedges and areas of native woodland, with lots of birds, insects and larger wildlife. May point being: it's important to examine the bigger picture. What impact does your palm oil and soya have on animals indigenous to the rainforest, or those whose cold habitats are shrinking. What effect does pesticide use, or rodent control have on local insects, and the wider food chains. It's not enough to say I don't eat meat therefore I have no impact on animals through out the world. You do, and ironically you might not be minimising it as much as you think. Think wider! Eat local, eat everything in moderation, be prepared to pay for a premium product and examine your food's backstory!

Go and watch some of joey carbstrongs videos on YouTube. I have been veggie for years but his vids have helped to push on and become vegan/pant based diet.
Animals are horrifically exploited, and the truth is that it is unnecessary. Listen to the pigs only months old scream, as they meet their humane death in a gas chamber.
And the dairy cow who has just given birth to another calf only 15 minutes old being thrown into a wheel barrow and removed from her.. her screams for the calf which will be fed on formula and kept as a dairy cow herself then eventually killed for her body’s meat. And that’s if the calf is lucky, if it’s male they get a bolt through the head soon after birth. The chickens that lay eggs will not get out alive either. They too when laying slows will be hung upside down in electrified water 😢
Human beings only care for the animals that mean something to THEM. All animals want to live in peace. They deserve to do so, they pay the ultimate price most die when they are infants. We have been conditioned to see this as ok, it’s brainwashing. It’s horrific the things humans do to animals, we have become completely disconnected. Factory farming = absolute hell. Check out those YouTube vids either way then you have the truth behind this industry. I hope I can stay strong and stay with it myself

I agree. This thread has really opened my eyes towards how brainwashed a lot of people are. It's amazing what people will come out with to defend their rights... And reminds me of the US and its insistence on guns.

I must admit I felt really sad hearing that pigs know they’re going to be slaughtered and this is why they shit so much, out of pure fear, this makes me really .

@EmeraldShamrock I would have thought most vegans would choose a pet which doesn't need to eat meat. I would think that many vegans with obligate carnivore pets like cats would probably have got them before they decided to be a vegan. Otherwise I agree. Why would you be ok with killing animals to feed your pet but not yourself.

they pay the ultimate price most die when they are infants

Most animals die in infancy. Nature is harsh. A quick dispatch in a slaughterhouse is a far pleasanter ending than most wild animals get.

A lot of people on here have talked about only buying high welfare meats but are you sure 100% of the animal products you eat are raised like this? Do you never eat meat while eating out or grab a chicken sandwich without thinking about it? Do you honesty check welfare standards each and every time you eat meat?

The thoughts of the slaughter is awful. Most people put it out of their mind.
My Dsis thinks they should roam free, if everyone stopped eating meat they'll be extinct, who is going to keep farm animals as pets.
I am low meat eater, though I eat lots of cheese.

Do you never eat meat while eating out or grab a chicken sandwich without thinking about it?

I don’t eat pre-prepped chicken sandwiches, no.

Not sure why you think that’s unlikely, if vegans avoid animal products in similar pre-prepped food out and about. There’s plenty of options, after all.

You really can't fault the logic.

Just accept that you're not an animal lover. It's a ridiculous idea to my mind anyway. (I have a cat.)

Yes the pigs know, they don’t know exactly what is going to happen but they know it’s not good, and they feel absolute terror and lose control of their bowel.
Animals feel joy, excitement, fear, wonder, they have it all inside them in a similar way that we do.
One of my dogs won’t walk if it’s raining, if it starts when we are out he runs home 🤷‍♀️
One won’t sleep if his blanket is in the wash.
I love them so much, and I care enough about animals I will never know to not want them harmed, exploited or murdered.
You have to care about an animal you will never meet more than you want to consume milk, egg, meat, cheese ..

Human beings only care for the animals that mean something to THEM. All animals want to live in peace
Human beings only care for most things that mean something to do including fellow humans.
I often ask my sister how would farm animals live in peace, who would look after them, organise a vet, supply the land for this peaceful life.
No one. People care about profit without meat sales these animals would have no need to be farmed.
If the world turn vegan the planet would be stripped of greenery in no time.
Look at the lifes lost over avocado I don't see vegans avoiding them.

@KylieKoKo. No I don’t. If there is a product that clearly advertises their welfare standards then I will choose it but I don’t go out of my way and if the need arises I will go with an unknown or clearly mass produced product if that’s the only option available.

Incidentally, for me personally, I veer towards vegan/vegetarian options when I’m out anyway. I don’t really enjoy a lot of meat, particularly chicken and especially over the last few years. I don’t know whether it’s me or the meat itself but there’s often something about the texture/taste that is unappealing to me.

I agree and I say that as a meat eater. Watch Land of Hope & Glory on YouTube. It focuses on various animals from farm to slaughter in the UK, some supposedly "higher welfare" and RSPCA-approved. It's a really sad watch. Eggs and dairy production are both awful practises (beak trimming, slaughtering day-old male chicks, slaughtering male calves, the separation of cow and newborn calf). And I know that I'm saying all this as a hypocrite because I consume animal products. I enjoy the taste, so it's a selfish decision, but I love the taste of animals and eggs and dairy. And after watching that documentary on YouTube I can no longer say I don't know what goes on.

@Cornettoninja many chickens eat fortified food which makes them grow and gain weight at an unnatural rate.
Sometimes they can hardly stand upright.
This is so the time taken from hatching to reaching a slaughter weight is
Much faster. It will I’m sure have an unpleasant affect on the meat.

As for 'There would be no cows etc.' Since when did the UK have apex predators that could take down Cows, and pigs? Oh that's right we don't....

Wolves! Hunted to extinction in this country; but they did live here and are capable of taking down cattle in the US, so presumably could have done here?