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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to suggest that you aren't really an animal lover if you're not a vegan

552 replies

KylieKoKo · 20/10/2019 21:14

I'm a meateater but I was chatting to a vegan friend of mine about this and I think she has a point. It makes no sense to call yourself an animal lover if you pay others to kill animals or take their milk and eggs when its perfectly possible to live without them. I couldn't help but agree with her, and, as a non-vegan, had to conceed that I don't really love animals. In fact, I'm putting the fact that they taste nice above their lives and well-being on a daily basis.

I thought it would be interesting to see if anyone on here had an argument against this.

OP posts:
Lweji · 24/10/2019 00:23

If you care about the planet, there’s not even reason to proceed to consider the strong arguments based on health and cruelty. The environment is enough (or should be).

And you only use plants grown locally to you and that don't require extra water or pesticides, right? I bet you're also against GM crops that require less pesticides.

The counterpoint of this thread is that vegans aren't really animal lovers either. Just some animals. Can't think of any happily sharing their homes with mice and cockroaches.

Lweji · 24/10/2019 00:23

Because mice and cockroaches also experience fear and pain and hunger...

Whatagreytdoggo · 24/10/2019 00:40

@whengodwasarabbit Brilliantly put!. 🙌

OnlyTheTitOfTheIceberg · 24/10/2019 00:43

I eat about 90% vegetarian and a fair proportion of that is vegan, but militant vegans like some of the posters on this thread (like the ones claiming AI is rape etc) make me want to beat a calf to death with a hammer and eat it raw, which I'm fairly sure is not their intention.

TheMagpie · 24/10/2019 01:25

YABU, as is anyone else with this narrow minded view. I love animals but I physically cannot go vegan, nor would I mentally be able to (as I have a history of eating disorders and chronic illness so have a specific diet).

Oliversmumsarmy · 24/10/2019 14:49

Unless you grow all your temperate veg yourself without controlling animals in any way

Most of what we eat comes from Planet Organic.

Expensive but as close to cruelty free as we can get

nowayhose · 24/10/2019 15:04

That makes no sense to me at all I'm afraid.

By that way of thinking your vegan friend cannot call herself an animal lover if she ever (accidentally or intentionally) kills another living thing.
Doesn't matter if it's a spider, a frog, a snail, a wild bird, a deer, a rabbit, etc etc.......... Even Buddhists, who try not to ever harm a living thing would struggle..................

Also, does she wear leather shoes, belts, bags etc, or uses any make-up, shampoo etc..........the list of things either made from or tested on animals is also HUGE...........

If she uses oil/ petrol any fossil fuel, then I'm afraid she cannot be an animal lover, cos that's made from plants and animals !

GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman · 24/10/2019 18:30

@Oliversmumsarmy
Most of what we eat comes from Planet Organic.
Organic standards contain nothing about the control of pigeons, rabbits and deer. Not that I could find in the Soil Association Standards (it was interesting though, I learned a thing or two along the way).

I think I get where you're coming from. It's much more pleasant to believe that we can exist on this planet without causing harm to other living beings. When you live in a city, it's easy to just not know what nature is actually like, and how the rural environment works. Britain is not especially natural, since we've messed about with it so much to grow crops and raise stock and find space for 65 million people on a rather small archipelago, but its natural enough that the rules of supply and demand continue to operate.

If there are too many deer, they will eat everything in sight, in turn depriving other animals of food sources and shelter. Once they have done this, they begin to starve and get sick. In Britain, we can't leave it to 'nature' to sort out the deer, because owing to population pressure we have exterminated wolves and lynx, so there are no apex predators left. Because of this, around 300,000 deer are culled every year in the UK, just to keep the population more-or-less stable, allow crops to be grown, let woodland to thrive, and reduce the number of deer-related RTAs to an acceptable level.

That's just how it works. Currently, there is no way around this problem. Much the same applies to rabbits and pigeons: we provide a massive food source, and they will reproduce and exploit it to the max unless we stop them.

Even a balanced ecology is brutal. Wild animals generally die pretty unpleasant deaths, usually of hunger or slow disease (or, sometimes, being killed by a predator). If you can accept that reality, captive bolt stunning looks positively merciful.

Oliversmumsarmy · 26/10/2019 11:18

Personally I would rather live free and die a miserable death than in a pseudo utopia and be murdered at a young age by someone who wanted to eat me.

FWIW I am vegetarian (although I do have an allergy to all dairy and wheat) and my egg consumption is from eggs from my friends chickens.

I try to eat as much organic food as I can.

My friend has rabbits in his garden.

He hates the rabbits. They dig up his lawn (lawn = 2-3 acres of grass) and they became an obsession with him.

He would not let them live in piece but would take a shotgun out to them and kill a few every so often. (Mostly missing them especially if he was drunk)

I tried to point out the ones he was killing might not have been quick enough to escape due to age or Myxomatosis which apparently was on the area

The rabbits thrived as our friends MH decreased because of him picking off the ill and the old.

Left to their own devices the rabbit population would have decreased naturally. But friend had to interfere

I am a firm believer that nature has a habit of unleashing something that keeps the population of animals and to some degree humans in check far better than us playing God

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 26/10/2019 11:45

Um, myxomatosis was, rather notoriously, introduced by humans, and nature has a habit of taking care of the sick and old so the rabbits would thrive whether or not your friend was killing the sick and old.

Your post is very confused and I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

Lweji · 27/10/2019 10:01

Personally I would rather live free and die a miserable death than in a pseudo utopia and be murdered at a young age by someone who wanted to eat me.
Most animals don't have the same concept of freedom and of future that you do.
It's interesting that you'd rather die a miserable death (hunger, disease, being chased by a predator) rather than a quick death when you don't expect it. Are you ok?

Oliversmumsarmy · 27/10/2019 12:27

ArnoldWhatshisknickers the point I was making is that if he hadn’t meddled the rabbit population would have gone down naturally but him killing off the diseased ones was protecting the rest so they thrived.

Lweji I am perfectly fine.
Are you saying that you would rather live a lovely life for 5 years then die or live free and make your own way in the world even if you were cold and hungry some of the time.

(I grew up cold and hungry just in case someone was going to point out I might not have experienced these things and my family were chased across Europe in fear of death if they were caught so I know the stories from their time on the run)

Personally I choose freedom every time.

FWIW the animals don’t just die peaceful deaths in their sleep and I don’t think their deaths are quick enough they don’t know what is happening

GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman · 27/10/2019 15:26

the point I was making is that if he hadn’t meddled the rabbit population would have gone down naturally but him killing off the diseased ones was protecting the rest so they thrived.
You know this how? Rabbit populations normally increase until they reach the carrying capacity of their surroundings (i.e. they run out of food), or Farmer Giles or a local pest controller goes after them due to the crop damage they are causing, or a myxi epidemic sweeps through. Believe me, when myxi comes back around (as it does, every 4 or 5 years) it decimates the local rabbit population, from loads to few in the space of a season. If rabbits are dying of myxi, the rabbit population isn't usually increasing: it is going through the floor.

Are you saying that you would rather live a lovely life for 5 years then die or live free and make your own way in the world even if you were cold and hungry some of the time.
It doesn't work like that in the wild. The majority of young animals that are born either do not make it through to adulthood, or do not survive for long as independent adults. They can't: the natural environment doesn't allow it, even taking humans out of the equation.

Think about it: a lowland red deer hind will have a calf each year from the time she is herself about 2 years old old. If she lives to be ten or twelve (a fairly normal lifespan for a successful hind), she will produce 8 or 10 calves. She only needs a couple of these (20-30%) to survive to reproductive age for the population to remain stable. Of these 8 or so calves, some will die young of predation (if we're talking about an environment where the apex predators are still around) or sickness or, in a lean year, of hunger. Others might die of injuries (quickly if they are lucky, slowly if not). This is even more true of animals that produce large litters (e.g. fox, rabbits).

Contrast that with the average lamb: even lambs born to hill ewes have an average survival rate to maturity of >80%. This is because the ewe will have been wormed and probably given some form of supplemental feeding, so she is in good condition during her pregnancy and lactation and should produce a healthy, good-sized lamb (or lambs). Animals like crows likely to predate on lambs will have been controlled by the farmer and, in the UK, some predators (wolves, for example) were wiped out long ago. If a lamb suffers a cut leg, say, the farmer will probably see this before it becomes infected, maggoty and fatal and will bring the lamb in and treat it.

And in any case, a sheep doesn't stand in a field and think, I would love to be FREE. In fact, when sheep are on more open range (the hills of the Lake District, for example) they don't wander far. They are what is called hefted, which means they stick to their home ground.

Lweji · 27/10/2019 19:39

Are you saying that you would rather live a lovely life for 5 years then die or live free and make your own way in the world even if you were cold and hungry some of the time.

No. I'm saying non-human animals don't choose in the same way that we do because they have different brains. They're not sentient like humans.

Even humans, in many situations prefer comfortable lives to freedom.

Oliversmumsarmy · 27/10/2019 20:35

But animals sentient creatures

Cam77 · 27/10/2019 20:41

@Lweji
“And you only use plants grown locally to you and that don't require extra water or pesticides, right? I bet you're also against GM crops that require less pesticides. The counterpoint of this thread is that vegans aren't really animal lovers either. Just some animals. Can't think of any happily sharing their homes with mice and cockroaches.”
Your argument is a very tired and nonsensical one. Namely, because you can’t do anything (everyone’s a hypocrite man!!) you might as well just do anything. Slavery? Keep it, we’re all slave to something afterall. Misogyny and sexism? Life isn’t fair, deal with it. Polluting the oceans? Fish shit in the oceans don’t you know.
Your argument can be classified as belonging to the ancient philosophical school of “I’m lazy and can’t be bothered to give a shit. (And I like meat)”. Fine, free society - it’s your right. But don’t think for a moment anyone with half a brain will mistake it for anything more than that!

Anotherplanetandwhiskey · 27/10/2019 20:49

In fact, I'm putting the fact that they taste nice above their lives and well-being on a daily basis.

They have a life because they taste nice.

Cam77 · 27/10/2019 20:58

@anotherplanet
It pleases and amuses me that this kind of “argument” is what people are reduced to these days in defence of their environmentally destructive, cruel, and unhealthy diet. Probably better just getting on with it quietly.

derxa · 27/10/2019 21:18

TBH you lost me when you talked about 'raping animals'. A cow has no concept of assent to impregnation, and I take it you have never seen ewes in a field with a tup. They mostly just look bored. Grin
That's so true. It's all over in a few seconds and the ewe just stands there.
One of our tups is old and is going off his legs. It's very sad that he has to go. But he's spent the last seven years eating and tupping ewes and the best of care. many pets have much worse lives.

Shooturlocalmethdealer · 27/10/2019 21:37

I love animals. Maybe not all animals. I love my dog I dont eat those. I'm indifferent to cows and pigs. I eat those. Etc.. Ridiculous for your friend to claim someone doesnt love animals because they arent vegan.

Tinkerbell456 · 27/10/2019 21:45

derxa, totally agree about raping cattle. We are talking about animals! Are they sentient? Yes. They are thinking entities. No doubt about that. Do they have feelings? Yes. Fear, anger, affection, yes. The kind of feelings needed to survive and further the species. My uncle had a dairy farm. Cows lead relatively unsatisfying sex lives really. No romance. No candle lit dinners and flowers. We have geese. Our gander will shag one of the girls and they generally don’t stop grazing. It’s over in seconds. Casanova he ain’t. I hate to think of any animal feeling fear or pain. However, that is part of the experience of living. Do they fear death? I am certain that they do when faced with it. So do humans. Does it get us out of pain, fear or death? No. We humans, and indeed many other animals, need meat to be healthy really. So too, many animals. Good luck convincing foxes, to give but one example, to be vegan. Yes, we can substitute meat in our diet and be okay, but boy, do you have to like soy in it’s various forms. You need to eat a lot of it. Also spinach. Nature is beautiful but not always kind.

derxa · 27/10/2019 22:02

Tinkerbell You have explained it well. It's as if some of you have never seen any wildlife programmes. Those poor wee albatross chicks on David Attenborough tonight. Although that programme does veer towards anthropomorphism. Some humans live shit lives and so do some animals. I would prefer to be a sheep in our fields compared to the lives some humans have. I do love animals. I've given mouth to mouth resuscitation to a lamb. I probably wouldn't do it for a human.

Saddler · 27/10/2019 22:54

Think whatever you like

BobLobLawLLB · 28/10/2019 00:52

This is a brilliant speech (no images or footage of animals) just the witterings of a former city banker.

Lweji · 28/10/2019 07:15

No. I'm saying non-human animals don't choose in the same way that we do because they have different brains. They're not sentient like humans.

Again.
It's a comparison. Non-human animals that are commonly used for food don't perceive the world like we do. They don't have the same concept of freedom or of choice of sexual partner.