AIBU to suggest that you aren't really an animal lover if you're not a vegan

[KylieKoKo]

I'm a meateater but I was chatting to a vegan friend of mine about this and I think she has a point. It makes no sense to call yourself an animal lover if you pay others to kill animals or take their milk and eggs when its perfectly possible to live without them. I couldn't help but agree with her, and, as a non-vegan, had to conceed that I don't really love animals. In fact, I'm putting the fact that they taste nice above their lives and well-being on a daily basis.

I thought it would be interesting to see if anyone on here had an argument against this.

I think it’s its hilarious to say that animals are self-aware just like humans, but a lion only kills to eat on instinct.

Not all animals are the same level of self-aware, you do realise? What about dolphins and elephants that can mourn and have complex family relationships etc, are they not sentient in any way? Ridiculous.

Tbh, just because an animal has an instinctual drive for whatever, does not mean they cannot also be sentient. We have drives and act on instinct sometimes too, as do baby humans but we wouldn't say we aren't sentient.

Some of the more intelligent animals are more intellectually capable then the least intelligent humans, but somehow less sentient. Figures

Well-tended livestock animals are treated just as 'lovingly' as most cats

Not on the same level other wise they wouldn't want them to be slaughtered for food.

You have misunderstood - the treatment of well-tended livestock, whilst alive, is as 'loving' as the treatment most cats receive. Feral farm cats are probably treated significantly less well than a lot of the livestock, in fact!

I don't eat cats because there's not much meat on them so they're not bred for slaughter. Their furry faces are cute, etc., but then piglets are also adorable, as are lambs. I'm not making a moral judgement about cats being 'better' than any other animals.

Different animals are eaten in different countries - that's cultural.

I just think it's a bit ludicrous to say you're not an "animal lover", whatever that is, if you devote your life to animal husbandry, just because the animals you lovingly tend to every day of their lives are eventually slaughtered for meat.

It's clearly not a popular attitude, at this moment in time, anyway.

YANBU

I'm not vegan or vegetarian. I love animals but I see that it's hypocritical.

is as 'loving' as the treatment most cats receive

Why is loving in quotation marks? Treatment of cats is usually objectively loving unless you abuse them or don't like them, should be the same with livestock.

I'm not a vegan, but I certainly question the idea that you'd kill something you genuinely loved, however well you care for it while it's alive!

I love dogs and cats and I like to look at wildlife, so I'm an animal lover to that extent. But I wouldn't say I loved birds, deer, badgers etc in the same way as dogs and cats at all. I like chickens, lambs and cows primarily because they taste nice, though some of them look nice too.

If I were to become vegetarian or vegan, it would be for environmental and health reasons tbh, rather than because I loved chickens too much to eat them!

I put 'loving' in quotation marks because I think the whole premise of the thread is slightly bonkers, if I'm honest! What does being an "animal lover" really mean? Plenty of people say they're "animal lovers" and it means nothing much at all. People "love" their pet dogs and treat them pretty badly, all things considered. I just don't think it's a very useful statement.

People "love" their pet dogs and treat them pretty badly, all things considered. I just don't think it's a very useful statement.

Hmm, I get you, but not everyone treats their loved dog badly, just like not everyone treats their loved child badly. In fact, if you really do treat them badly, you don't love them surely.

I dislike most animals and I'm a vegetarian who doesn't eat eggs or drink milk. I eat cheese so I'm not Vegan.

Does this put me in some special category?

Hmm, I get you, but not everyone treats their loved dog badly, just like not everyone treats their loved child badly. In fact, if you really do treat them badly, you don't love them surely.

Which is why I think it's not a useful statement, because love is subjective.

A farmer 'loves' his working sheepdog, who is with him every day for 12 hours a day, herding the livestock (who the farmer also cares for, and gives a good life roaming on the hills, before transporting them to be humanely slaughtered for meat). That dog is getting mental stimulation and exercise the majority of its day. That dog lives outside in a kennel.

A pet dog owner 'loves' their dog. They keep it safely inside while they go to work full-time, but they provide it with toy, walk it once a day for half an hour and let it out to the garden for toilet breaks. It sleeps on their bed with them at night.

Which owner 'loves' their dog more? Which dog has a 'better' life?

Same arguments apply to intensively-reared pigs vs free-range rare-breed pigs, feral cats vs designer indoor-only felines, etc etc.

Same arguments apply to intensively-reared pigs vs free-range rare-breed pigs, feral cats vs designer indoor-only felines, etc etc.

The same couldn't apply to animals in mass-produced factories who have no quality of life though, like battery hens etc, though do we agree on that?

Actually, no. The same argument does not apply to "intensively reared pigs" vs "free-range". The conditions of IR pigs are unethical and not in any way comparable to pigs in a field.

This is a version of love to you?

All you have to do is read a bit about intensive factory farming animals like cows/pigs/chickens to know those animals are not loved. Hardly the same as a farmer raising livestock in fields and showing them affection and allowing them some freedom to express their natural behaviours.

Perhaps I phrased it poorly, Jamz. I am saying that the definition of "love" is meaningless in terms of determining if it's OK to eat an animal, that's all.

OK, I concede to that. I do think FF animals is immoral though, from a welfare perspective, and I think a lot of cattle farmers would too. Free range provides them with the best life before slaughter.

I'm a bit conflicted on this.

No one wants to die so the whole act of killing a living being is straight away barbaric and I don't think you can realistically claim to love animals if you are taking their life without consent.

However.

The non animal alternatives are often extremely damaging environmentally speaking causing mass habitat destruction (and therefore killing vast numbers of animals).
Pesticide useage for edible plants is killing off pollinating insects, birds and all sorts of other creatures and has been implicated in human ill health too, the Zika virus for example.

Although we keep hearing about how red meat is bad and plant based diets are best, there are certain minerals we are told we need that are only found in animal products and huge numbers of vegans who ultimately end up going back to animal products after ill health.
So I assume that in fact, we are supposed to be eating animal products, though probably not in such large quantities.

Non animal non food products are often largely made from plastic and we all know how bad that stuff is.
It doesn't degrade and the chemicals are toxic both for the environment and the people working around it.

On balance, I think without doubt that natural, minimally processed products are best for the planet and animals and humans.
That includes animal products like meat and fur and leather which can be tanned without chemicals (though unfortunately often aren't), are not easily flammable, insulate better and bio degrade in time.

I'm a vegan who isn't an animal lover. I mean I don't wish cruelty on any living being, but I don't give it that much thought beyond that.

The thing is, I don't disassociate the steak on my plate from the cow in the field. This is partly because DH shoots a lot of the meat we eat, brings it home and we butcher it. So when I do buy beef, rather than fishing something I helped butcher out of the freezer, I do think about the cow.

And I still eat it.

I'm also really curious to know what vegans do when their DC come home from school running with headlice or infested with worms, or if they have a infestation of mice or a wasps' nest in the attic.

'I don't disassociate the steak on my plate from the cow in the field. This is partly because DH shoots a lot of the meat we eat, brings it home and we butcher it. So when I do buy beef, rather than fishing something I helped butcher out of the freezer, I do think about the cow.'

That's interesting but most people eat meat that has been mass produced, factory farmed then transported in cramped wagons to be herded into slaughterhouses where they are scared and distressed.

Most meat eaters won't think about the reality of the horrors in a slaughterhouse because they like their roast dinners too much. It is sickening it really is. We have people rescuing dogs from farms in china and Korea to bring back to the UK because we are a nation of dog lovers, yet everyone here is equally as guilty of contributing to animal cruelty everytime they eat a ham sandwich.

The term "animal lover" is one of those woolly, fuzzy things that doesn't really have any concrete meaning.
Animals got separated into a few different categories by humans over the course of millennia. Initially all animals were of course wild animals, many species being hunted for food, hides etc., others killed because to those species humans were the prey.
Cats & dogs, the main animals currently thought of as the category "pets" became domesticated from wolves & wildcats for practical reasons, because they had a very useful purpose in being brought into the human settlements. Dogs helped with hunting down & killing prey, & being pack animals were happy defending members of their adopted pack species. Cats were extremely efficient killers of rodents & birds that destroyed crops once humans began farming, frequently live in colonies in the wild & so were also equipped to adapting to life within a human settlement. Those broad categories still exist - food, predator, domesticated for personal use - even though humans currently live in very much changed societies.
Up until quite recent times most people would've been unaware that polar bears exist, never mind have feelings of "love" for them. It's fascinating to see documentaries about them but they're very much in the category of predators. No species has feelings of "love" towards their predators, well, none that would survive beyond a single generation.

Cats & dogs survive as pets in modern society because they can indeed be very cute & companionable even if we don't need them for other purposes. There are trends now & again for things like pet pigs. They don't catch on in the same way partly because of the volume & stench of their excrement & the amount of food they need provided with in urban settings.
I'm very much a cat lover, from generations of cat lovers. Dogs are okay. Hamsters, gerbils, canaries etc I can't see the point of as a pet. I eat meat. I'm against cruelty to animals because cruelty serves no purpose, but I'm not in any way against animals being farmed for food.

Glittery you constantly generalise in your posts e.g.
everyone here is equally as guilty of contributing to animal cruelty everytime they eat a ham sandwich.
even when posters explain that no, not everyone.

It's that attitude that gets up people's noses. That if you eat any meat at all, regardless of how and where it was sourced, raised, and killed, that you are a bad person and directly responsible for animal cruelty.

It's annoying. No one should generalise.

headlice or infested with worms, or if they have a infestation of mice or a wasps' nest in the attic

I am vegetarian but could go vegan very easily.
Head lice and nits are what I consider parasites which live off my person so are doing harm to me.

Wasp nests I just leave and don’t go into the attic.

They are usually gone by the time winter comes

I have only ever had one mouse in the house

I corralled it out. I think it would have been harder to kill.

I think vegans can do more harm than good in thinking it is the vegan way or the highway.

I am an animal lover, I try not to kill anything when I am gardening, I check the leaves of the Buddleia before I cut it down, I remove snails and worms and woodlice from things and put them in an area

For me I would rather people be vegetarian than meat eaters. Or just to have a few veggie or vegan meals per week.

Veganism can be hard if done in one go. Better to go veggie then add in a few vegan meals till you make the jump into veganism

Decrying people who are vegetarian for not being vegan and saying they have more blood on their hands than meat eaters will just send those that are vegetarian back to meat eating rather than encouraging them to become vegan.

Fair enough, @Oliversmumsarmy, but what about cockroaches? Rats around barns where grain is stored? And if it's okay to control rats around a harvested crop, is it okay to control pigeons over one still in the field? And if it's okay to control pigeons, is it okay to eat them?

It's not straightforward. It isn't a sharp binary between good and bad, right wrong, evil carnivores and saintly vegans.

Chicken etc is made of protein, not fat.

This is the funniest thing I've read for a while, thank you