racism during england match tonight....

[KickItOut]

So they have a 3 step rule against racism but didn’t manage to get past the 1st step despite persistent racist chants in the second half.

I cannot believe that dehumanising non-whites is still a thing today.

AIBU that there needs to be a much tougher stance against racism?

The only thing I think would work is a sort of civil rights type moment in which all PoC around the world actively withdraw support by not purchasing tickets, not attending matches, not betting on matches, purchasing memorabilia and teams in black majority cultures do not participate in the game, send teams to play and boycott football etc.

Not going to happen. But it's a game that has a mass audience and needs a mass response imo.

I am not saying that POC don't face worse and different kinds of racism. But assuming that white people are somehow immune from experiencing racism is a bit naive as well imo.

And here comes the Whataboutery
Sorry you had to go through that but you have not had to deal with the historic dehumanization that POC have had to deal with for decades and continue to deal with. I am not naive, nor i'm I assuming anything. The hard truth is white people will never know the same level of racism that POC will know, and that's just the way it it. Sure, you may face some prejudice but it is not the same thing nor is it relatable to what we face. Try being an 11 year old brown kid, in an American school during 9/11.

It's actually quite tasteless to come on a thread about racism and point out how as a white person, you have also had to deal with prejudice behavior.

you have not had to deal with the historic dehumanization that POC have had to deal with for decades and continue to deal with.

I agree (sort of. Because what Jewish people, Sinti etc have gone through is absolutely an example of historic dehumanization and brutal institutionalised violence). But there were Nazi salutes(amongst other racist shit). The Nazis targeted white people... Like my ancestors, btw. Wouldn't have mentioned it otherwise.

@CravingCheese I see your point. I think there are different forms of prejudiced. By all means, what the Jewish went through at the hands of the Nazi's was definite horrible de-humanization. Whilst some may still deal with prejudice, I struggle to believe its the same level as POC currently face. Maybe i'm wrong as I am not Jewish so I have no first hand examples.
It just does get frustrating to constantly deal with white people getting defensive and chiming in about their struggles whenever the topic of racism comes up. Can we not just have separate issues and accept white privilege exists? Its not about your individual or personal struggle, its about he wider institutionalized racism that is a direct result of the more obvious racism that still takes place.

It was a disgusting situation for the players. They behaved with dignity, however, and showed those cowards up for what they are.

I also see your point. And I agree with a lot of what you're saying.

I am not Jewish either. But the amount of security the local temple, schul and Jewish cemetery etc need are imo more than telling.

But I'm really not sure how you can separate the issue when it comes to Nazi salutes (so neo-Nazis?) in Europe tbh... Seeing as most victims of the Nazis were other white people.

The only thing I think would work is a sort of civil rights type moment in which all PoC around the world actively withdraw support by not purchasing tickets, not attending matches, not betting on matches, purchasing memorabilia and teams in black majority cultures do not participate in the game, send teams to play and boycott football etc.

It might have more of an impact if it was white people that did the boycotting

@SerendipityJane
@CatherineOfAragonsPrayerBook

I think the whole England team should walk off if (when) it happens again. I think they would have a lot of support in Britain, if they did that. There might still be some problems in Britain when it comes to race but it’s a hell of a lot better than most places.

@CatherineOfAragonsPrayerBook Surely it would be more effective if white people boycotted games, seeing as the majority of people causing a problem are white. The wankers being racist want BAMEs away from ‘their’ game.

People with values who are white will join a mass movement by PoC that aims to stop prejudice (just as you find with BLM etc), but expecting white people to take the initiative and raise up a huge mass movement on our behalf is expecting too much in my opinion.

I also think it is time for poc to stand up ourselves in this issue. White people taking the lead...no. Enough of that. It paints us as victims without autonomy and self-possession which I'm passionately against.

Unfortunately, men will be men, this is their idea of sport, you don’t get this sort of behaviour at the crochet and knitting club

It isn’t a man thing, it’s a football thing. Female fans are often just as bad at football matches, I’ve been called a Paki and wog by female Chelsea fans.

No sport has perfect fans, however if you go to rugby, tennis, cricket there is far far less of this behaviour.

I used to play rugby for an inclusive team, I have never witnessed any racism, we did have an incident of homophobia, the fan was knocked down a peg or two by the supporters in near by seats and banned from future matches.

Players also fail to set a good example, swearing at refs, then we have commentators like Ron Atkinson calling players black bastards.

It's no wonder so many people want us to be detached from Europe, when they see this kind of thing going on over there

I'm white but my oh is black and obviously our DC are mixed race. The only racism we experience is from Eastern Europeans. We both voted to leave the EU and this was part of the reason why, yet apparently this makes me racist.

@GreytExpectations
Whilst some may still deal with prejudice, I struggle to believe its the same level as POC currently face. Maybe i'm wrong as I am not Jewish so I have no first hand examples.

I can’t speak for U.K., but in the US, Jewish Americans are at a higher risk of being a victim of a hate crime to include hate motivated homicide than a black/African American.

FBI 2017 hate crimes.
From: ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2017/topic-pages/victims

5,060 race/ethnicity/ancestry victims of hate crimes

• 48.6% or 2,459 black/African American victims (blacks/African Americans are 13% of US population)

1,749 religious victims of hate crimes

• 58.2% or 1,016 Jewish victims (Jewish Americans are 2% of US population)

There are 13 black/African Americans for every 2 Jewish Americans, so if they were equally at risk of hate crime, then for every 2 Jewish Americans attacked in a hate crime, you’d expect to see 13 black/African Americans attacked. Because there are far fewer Jewish Americans than black/African Americans you have to look at the proportionality between the populations.

So, that would mean we’d expect to see 6,604 black/African American victims if we had equal hate crime risk to the current number of 1,016 Jewish American victims. Dividing 6,604 by 2,459 and you get the statistic that a Jewish American is 2.7x MORE likely to be a victim of a hate crime for their religion than a black/African American is for their race.

Oh and before anyone says anything, I know not all are racist...I know several lovely Eastern Europeans but racism is certainly more prevalent there than in the UK.

But I'm really not sure how you can separate the issue when it comes to Nazi salutes (so neo-Nazis?) in Europe tbh... Seeing as most victims of the Nazis were other white people.

I’m black and agree with you on this. I looked up the photos and read what happened and it was clear as day the thugs in black were being racist on multiple levels. They were booing every nonwhite player and very obviously doing a monkey noise chant, they were doing Nazi salutes (anti-Jewish) and the two finger salute (historically anti-english from when they’d cut off those two fingers of all english POWs so they could not use a weapon ever again).
It’s important to fight all types of dehumanization and hate, erasing all but the racism against nonwhites is an automatic fail.

I don’t think boycotting sports or sporting events by fans or teams will fix racism in sports. That’s what these assholes want. They are bullies and WANT only like minded people there- racist fans and racist teams playing in their whites only stadium like back in the bad old days.

No, I personally think that swift, efficient enforcement is what FIFA and other sports leagues should do. First, any fan rocking up in KKK outfit, blackface or other offensive costume/face paint or flag/sign should be denied entry. Anyone who changes after entry, should be spotted by CCTV running smart algorithms and ejected from the stadium. The second any assholes start chanting or making racist gestures, the match should be put in time out until every last one is escorted out of the stadium. I don’t care if ticket prices go up by 10% to fund private security made of hardened veterans who will isolate and eject these guys quickly and forcibly.
They need to go, not us and not nonracist people. Boycotting is playing chicken and hiding at home.

Sad to say the only thing that surprised me was that some supporters were ejected at half time. Not even the Bulgarian coach, who has resigned btw, claiming not to have heard any racist chants shocked me.

the problem with racism in Eastern Europe (institutional racism, racist governments) is exactly why I voted leave in 2016 and why I literally want to scream when people class all brexiters as racist and the EU as golden.

I think the England players should have walked off- you shouldnt have to put up with racists chants.

Also if this happened at every football event- zero tolerance- one hopes the other supporters would turn on those racists who cost them a game to watch !

There might still be some problems in Britain when it comes to race but it’s a hell of a lot better than most places totally agree!!!!!!!

historically anti-english from when they’d cut off those two fingers of all english POWs so they could not use a weapon ever again

Actually, historically bollocks. But then "racist" is a synonym for "ignorant moron", so to be expected ...

@formerbabe

This is exactly my experience and I’m trying to make this point on another thread.

I experienced racism from the authorities in Bosnia and racism from Poles over here. I’m British and I have a Caribbean grandfather, so I’m darker than what many Eastern Europeans expect a British person to be - in fact some of them don’t see non Anglo Saxon Brits as British at all, even though their families have been here for generations.

Boycotting is playing chicken and hiding at home.

Sorry?

@SerendipityJane
Oops. Yes, looks like it is technically folklore not history. But everyone knows the story behind it and that it is an offensive gesture against or to English people...or Australians...I remember when President Bush did it on a visit to Australia (he thought he was doing peace sign) and the shocked silence and boos that followed.

The cutting the two fingers off myth goes back way further than WW2. It was supposed to be in the Anglo French wars (Agincourt etc) where it was said they cut the first two fingers off the English bowmen who were massively superior. Pile of poo, but it sounded good.