To not like to hear people being described as toxic?

[Wanttosleep92]

Am I the only one who feels a bit sad at the tendency to describe people as ‘toxic’? I seem to be seeing it all the time - I follow a social media account promoting ‘positive mental health’ and they just shared a quote about cutting toxic people out. I do get not speaking to certain people for your own self preservation but I just hate the word toxic in that it seems to imply that a person is irrevocably bad/irredeemable. It just doesn’t seem very charitable or forgiving or nuanced. It also makes me dwell on my own past mistakes, I hate that there are people out there who would probably describe me as toxic... maybe I’m being naive but I just wish people could be a bit more forgiving and loving to one another instead of dismissing people as toxic for any bad behaviour

But it precludes somebody being able to change doesn’t it?

People can change, but I think it’s very important that we don’t put it on the victim that they have to allow, excuse and put up with being treated badly. Nobody should have to allow themselves to be constantly hurt, just in case the perpetrator wants to change in the future.

Whereas if they are treated with compassion/as a flawed human being surely anyone can get better?

But how long to do you jeopardise your own well being in an attempt to people be ‘better’?

Whilst toxic isn’t necessarily a word I would use myself (and I can sort of understand your dislike of the word), I think it’s an important way people move on from someone who has consistently hurt them. Usually people described as ‘toxic’ are those we should be able to rely on. Labelling their behaviour can help the victim find peace that the relationship can’t be what they hoped.

I would love to live in a kinder world too, OP.

Unfortunately there are people out there, as you've experienced, that don't care about being nice and will hurt you if it suits them.

Calling them what they are does not make the world 'less' kind. Recognising these people for what they are is important, and often toxic is the perfect description.

Mg MIL was toxic. I knew her 35 years, and she was never ever redeemable. Some people just are toxic, you cant change that, just as much as you cant really change any personality. I wish she was nicer, God we gave her hundreds of olive branches, it was just in her psyche.

Some people ARE toxic, unfortunately.

However, the term is overused.

My ex is toxic. A person is only toxic if they are having a negative impact on your mental and physical health through abusive behaviours aimed directly at you.

Some people are toxic though. They're behaviour poisons the realtionships around them. I can think of only two people I would describe as toxic. Both bitch about others constantly,make spiteful comments and in the 10 years I've known them they have never changed. They are also always the first to offer help or can be a great laugh so it can be too easy to be dragged onto their web again. I remind myself they are toxic in order to keep my defences up. So for me it's a useful word as it instantly reminds me of that they're really like.

So you were abusive & you have the nerve to be offended about a word to describe your own behaviour?? I hope you’ve gotten therapy as there’s no excuse for abuse/toxic behaviour.

Toxic is a great word to describe some people I have worked with. In friendships less so - but it’s perfect descriptor for some people who o thankfully don’t work with anymore

Whereas if they are treated with compassion/as a flawed human being surely anyone can get better?

Get better? you’re acting like the abuser is the victim? Do you mean change? And no adults rarely change.

I don't like it either, but not for the reasons stated in the OP. The disparity between the chronic overuse of this term on MN to describe a person compared to never hearing it used in this way in my actual life is jarring. And my actual life isn't short of people calling their relatives cunts.

When I read it in an OP on MN I tend to mentally check out/eye roll, which is unfair because the points being made may be the OP may be perfectly valid. But there you go.

Describing someone's behaviour as toxic I would find less off-putting.

@Wanttosleep92 - it's not happened much in my 47 years on this planet, but occasionally you'll bump into what can only be described as narcissistic psychopaths who truly are toxic - I work in a field where the partnership organisation had such a person and she's bad to the core - literally loves fucking people over, damaging them mentally, (there have been many) people leave in rafts and she absolutely breaks anyone new, enjoys giving them 'unachievable' targets or reports to write 'too detailed, not detailed enough, too shit, rewrite it again it's crap' ... even told people she hardly reads them it's just one of her games .... there's so many other shit things she's been doing including using her own company, providing shit products to spend public money, even when they weren't the chosen tender - still her company gets the job ... and gets away with it ... seemingly untouchable - and it's an utter disgrace that more senior people don't step in or see through the bullshit

Some people can't and won't get better. Some people have been given many opportunities to, too many and still remain toxic. They like hurting and upsetting others around them and feeling powerful. Of course I like to believe that anyone can change, but I am realistic enough to know that some people can't or at the very least, would be going against their own nature to do so, which makes it unrealistic to do so long term. I also think victims of such behavior don't need to minimise or be responsible for helping the person. If you think you have been toxic then it is up to you to change and to accept that the person you were toxic too may not change their opinion of you and that is okay.

I think you don't like to think of yourself as toxic because it makes you feel bad about yourself. Use that as incentive to change, don't focus on the words used to describe you. That is the other person's defensive mechanism against your behaviour. It is used to describe someone that has such a negative influence on someone's life that they must be removed from it for their own mental health and is a quick way of letting people know that.

Whereas if they are treated with compassion/as a flawed human being surely anyone can get better?"

Do you not think that premise is applied by all of the women murdered or badly injured by their Partners?

Likewise sex offenders, including child sex offenders.

On a lesser scale, legally, I've seen the damage done to people by toxic relatives. As a pp said, they spread their poison wherever they can, ruining lives and mental health of innocent people.

Are they toxic, or mentally ill, or severely damaged?

I've come to a point were i no longer care. They aren't my problem and sometimes your type of kindness allows them to carry on and have access to vulnerable people.

*you were toxic to

My mother is toxic. There is no chance for forgiveness or for her to change her ways. She is inherently toxic person - her beliefs are toxic, her behaviour is toxic, her effect on people is toxic. For her to cease being toxic she would have to become an entirely different person with a different outlook on everything and a different personality. If that ever happens I will cease to refer to her as toxic. Until that point, I will continue to refer to her as toxic as that’s what she is.

Instead of worrying about how we label people who treat us appallingly, how about focusing on not treating people appallingly instead? Why is it the victims' responsibility to 'enable' change in those who have abused them? It's not naive - it's victim-blaming and making excuses for those who are actually responsible for the poor behaviour.

Well my mum has 8 children, of which 5 have no contact with her and all have had serious mental health problems because of how she is. However she sees herself as the victim and refuses to make any changes to her behaviour. I think she's pretty toxic.

I'm just not convinced people can change after a certain point. I think that's why it's important to put the effort into teaching small children right and wrong.

I think most of the really cruel and nasty teens and adults who appear to change just learn to moderate their behaviour to appear more socially acceptable. The nasty side of them is still there.

The people who I think are toxic have been given multiple chances to change. I don't think it's that easy to change and where there is no self awareness or acceptance that what they are doing is wrong - then they won't change. According to them it will always be the other person at fault.

I think identifying them as toxic is done at the stage when their loved ones/friends/family have finally given up on them. There has been too much nastiness, accepting they won't change their ways and stepping away is the only solution to escape the harm being done.

it also makes me dwell on my own past mistakes, I hate that there are people out there who would probably describe me as toxic...

There you have it! This is WHY it bothers you so. You feel personally attacked, not that you care so much about the word used on others.

Don't let it bother you. If you've changed, you've changed. Nowhere does it say toxic people can't change but if they are at the time of needing to cut them out, then do.

TheWaronPeace has it right. Yes of course its unpleasant to label a person as toxic but its a device to distinguish between people who fuck up through carelessness etc but are genuinely remorseful and try to learn from their mistakes and people who make no attempt to confront the impact their behaviour has on others and carry on regardless. There's a massive difference between the two.

I think sometimes if you're got a long history with someone who has been abusive and taken advantage of your better nature to manipulate you and won't take any responsibility for the impact this has, then it is fair for you to label them internally as toxic, for your own survival as much as anything else.

If people steadfastly refuse to acknowledge that their behaviour inconveniences/upsets/manipulates others then its important to be able to mentally draw a line which seals you off from this and prevents their manipulation from impacting you. If calling them toxic helps then so be it.

There are toxic people and they don't want to change. No amount of 'compassion' will change their behaviour as they get off on making other people's lives as miserable as possible.
I worked in an environment that actively promoted this behaviour from the top down and it was hell. They made me a nervous wreck till I had to leave for my own good. Telling lies about other staff, constant criticism and blowing their own trumpet while not doing the job properly themselves. Sly digs and not so sly digs every day. Reducing staff to tears over something that wasn't their fault but it made them feel good to blame someone. Screaming abuse at staff in front of every one including clients, it was the most toxic place I have ever known. All down to 4 of the workforce who revelled in bullying others on a daily basis.

The workplace should have been a nice place to work but it wasn't it was awful as you never knew if you were going to face the 'false friendly' persona or the real vile, lying, narsassitic bitches each day. I say 'false friendly' as they would be chummy and quite nice all day then you would discover they had told a load of lies about what you did to the other staff next day (before you went in.) Most of the staff knew it was lies but one senior despite knowing this always chose to use the lies so they could ride my case all day criticising my every move. She was the epitomy of misogynism, racism and bigotry. Everything that came out her mouth was bile. It was soul destroying. They even admitted they knew it wasn't true to other staff but still did it just 'to keep me on my toes'! They did it with other staff to.

None of these people will change as they enjoy the power over others. I have no compassion for them whatsoever why the feck should I? They made my life hell. They are nasty to the core and I hope karma gets them good One day. I wouldn't spit on them if they were on fire.

Loads of people won’t ever change, they don’t see anything wrong with how they are, and think other people should change to accommodate them.

I’m not one for continually trying my best to be nice to a person who is always awful to me and other people, just on the off chance they might one day change their behaviour. Why on earth would they change if they are getting everything they want by behaving the way they are.

It might be overused, but it's certainly appropriate for some people. There's a woman in my life who I knew had a difficult background, and I tried my best to show kindness to her frequent dramas and need for attention. She was always the victim, but I still made allowances because it's not unusual for a victim of abuse to go onto further abusive relationships. Then I realised that she falls out with everyone, her adult children have each left the area because of her, she switches friends every five minutes, and all these men she has accused have never had problems with past or subsequent relationships. I found it difficult to comprehend, because I fundamentally believe that we should always support and believe victims of abuse.

In time I realised, this woman is toxic. Everything she touches turns to shit, because of her actions. I feel sorry for her, but I give her an almighty wide berth, because I've seen all the problems her histrionics have caused for others. And she'll never change, because there's always a new friend or lover who equally enjoys the drama, until she turns it round on them.

I agree with you OP. I think compassion is a good thing. I even controversially feel compassion to child murderers and rapists. I feel sorry for them and wonder what made them that way, what happened to them to twist them up so much. I wouldn't let them within an mile of my DC but I can still feel sorry for them that they have such horrible lives.

I believe anger is hurt. I believe trauma in early childhood and not being loved correctly plays out in adult life in extreme ways for some people. I controversially believe that those people who commit horrible acts and who are also just 'toxic' (dislike that term too) will never have happy lives and never experience the lovely feeling of coming home after work and being loved by their family. That is a sad concept, and if their basic needs of warmth, shelter, safety and food had been met in their early lives they would have felt part of society, felt like they belonged in the world they wouldn't act in horrible ways.

But it precludes somebody being able to change doesn’t it?

It doesn't, though. If a person wants to change they can. But nobody is entitled to treat those around them terribly and make cries in the name of "I can change" and expect those people to hold on forever in the hopes that it might happen.

Everyone has limits. Mine aren't terribly forgiving; I don't allow people to behave badly in front of or around my DC; others might be more tolerant.

MIL here (who is absolutely toxic) has been removed. Quietly and without fuss or noise. She'd love to still be involved, dragging everyone in to her dramas and stress. She would love to still be the central person in the family, calling the shots and deciding how things work. I think she underestimated my stubbornness and my desire to protect my DC. And as a consequence she will be alone this Christmas, on her birthday next week, all of the time.

She can still choose to change. I simply choose not to wait around in close proximity for that to happen. The DC know her behaviour is unacceptable, know that some people just make bad choices and know that they have the absolute right to remove themselves from situations where their safety and happiness aren't being preserved. I think it's an important lesson for all DC to learn, that toxic behaviour isn't accepted or brushed aside; it should be addressed and removed.