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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think its mens fault that women are "less up for it"

114 replies

MoanerLeaser · 09/10/2019 07:19

NC.

So I've just had a bloody awful nights sleep and need to rant. I was woken up 3 times in the night by DP pawing me. Dont worry, not in a scary horrible way, just in a 'I want sex' way.

Over the years; with various men and through listening to my girlfriends and stories of them with men; I'm starting to realise or at least think that this whole "Haha, women want sex less than men and it's so frustrating for the men" trope is actually mens own doing.
Collated examples of how men make it so women actually can no longer be arsed:

  • Being bad tempered for a stint and then just expecting you to suddenly forget that in bed
  • Nothing particularly inspiring or exciting happening in day to day life: how about getting up the motivation to actually go out, see each other in a different context, to get the juices flowing? How about trying to seduce me?
  • No real tenderness: How about a massage? How about physical warmth and touch that doesn't necessarily have to lead to sex?
  • Not making a woman feel special. How about some flowers? How about a well placed compliment?
  • Low energy: Quite a few men are actually just lazy in bed. What's in it for me, if it's just about you lying there?
  • Lack of ideas: The above don't necessarily all apply to my own relationship but this one does: after a year or two of instigating role play, dressing up etc, it's like... So are you going to titillate me in any way then?

Sorry for the rant! I just think when you see comics or whatever laughing about "her not being up for it", maybe it's like- because you're not feeling me with desire. It's not women who are somehow low sex drive. I think women's sex drives are maybe more complex.

OP posts:
ravenmum · 09/10/2019 11:43

I certainly agree with that @AngelsSins.
I remember being in school, aged about 12, and being accused of being "frigid" (for not wearing sexy enough clothes or something ridiculous). And that was almost 40 years ago. I doubt things have got better!
I do think that the recent discussion, questioning the role that boys are having held up to them, is also positive.

MymbleClement · 09/10/2019 11:46

He knows Allergic. It was part of a long and frank discussion about us not having sex as much as he would like. Going to bed earlier was one of my solutions but it seems he can't want it that much after all, as he'd prefer to carry on staying up late watching shit telly then chance his arm when he gets into bed.

LightsInOtherPeoplesHouses · 09/10/2019 12:02

I've never understood this concept that it's a man's responsibility to get women in the mood for sex. This plays into the idea that women are the gatekeepers of sex and it's something we 'give' to men.

It's not the mans responsibility, but there are things that make sex more likely. How people treat each other does effect mood and desire.

DH got very into a video game a few years back. Not a problem in itself, we're both gamers. But he would disappear all evening playing it, sometimes playing it until 1am or later. So basically I saw next to nothing of him, there was next to no interaction between us and then he'd want to cosy up and initiate sex.

We had a chat about how that made me feel, he understood and cut down on the gaming.

BertieBotts · 09/10/2019 12:18

OP I think you are absolutely right.

Obviouslt NAMALT etc Hmm - does this still really need to be said? I'm not in a relationship remotely like this now but I still think it's a cultural pattern which is useful to recognise.

Enough men ARE like this for it to be a widespread problem.

It comes from multiple angles as well, and it all feeds back into itself like a cycle.

Culturally, sex = PIV, focused on the male orgasm/male arousal, as in, you NEED an erect penis, otherwise nothing is happening or it's certainly not considered "the main event", the male orgasm is also thought of as the "natural" stopping point. The female orgasm is treated as some kind of impossible side quest or if you're lucky something to be got out of the way first or attended to afterwards like an afterthought. But many men don't give a second thought to how to achieve it, they just expect it to magically happen during PIV sex.

I reckon a lot of it is conditioning as well. If the majority of your sexual experiences (early or always) tend to involve orgasm, good natured experimentation, communication, connection, fun - then you're going to build up a positive association where sex = good feelings. For men I think this is fairly likely to be the case, and also for some women of course. But for a lot of women it's not - and if the majority of your first experiences of sex are not associated with these nice feelings, or even worse are associated with feelings such as discomfort or pain, (how many people are/were told "it always hurts the first time"?) unpleasant bodily fluids with awkward clean up, boredom, obligation, physical activity with no reward then your association is going to be far less positive - and I'm not even getting into the fact that unfortunately a large minority of women have sexual assault as part of their formative sexual experiences so you can add pain, trauma, fear and violation to those associations for those women - and if you've been raised with oppressive views about sex (which I think is unlikely in this country in this decade, but you never know?) you can add guilt and fear from that angle as well. Fear of pregnancy ought to affect both sexes but tends to be more real to women, as we are the ones who would actually have to go through it - and tend to do the thinking in terms of need to take a pill/make sure he uses a condom, is my period late? Do I need a morning after pill? Plus side effects of these hormones.

So if you get past those initial experiences, then the majority of men have built up a positive association with sex whereas I think a lot of women - I want to say a majority? But I don't really know, and I have been told I'm painting a really grim picture of this on here before and apparently it's only a minority - but anyway - let's say women are more likely to have a range of associations with sex, ranging from "best thing ever" through "nice warm fuzzy feelings" to "bit of a hassle, ultimately worth it" "alright but massively overrated" "boring/uncomfortable/tiring, maybe dangerous" right up to "frightening and traumatic". In my experience, men (even nice ones who are good in bed and interested in your orgasm) just don't get this. They assume that everyone has the association that sex = nice, warm, fuzzy feelings. They know about the frightening/traumatic response but they hugely underestimate the number of women this affects and also assume that if you were traumatised by sex you'd tell them, whereas many women who have been assaulted or traumatised by sex don't recognise that this was sexual assault (because it was not a stranger in the bushes with a knife) and/or they feel ashamed and don't want to tell people about it. But men don't know about the in between associations women have with sex, and I would guess that for most women the in between ones (not the best thing ever, not scary or traumatic) are the most common.

So there is a massive disconnect between how men see sex and how women see sex but also in how men assume women see sex. So men then go to offer sex to women as though they are suggesting some kind of amazing treat - the woman if she does not have an overly positive relationship with sex receives this as though he is suggesting doing some kind of exercise class or cleaning the kitchen sink, and understandably, is less than enthusiastic in her response. Man interprets this as "She doesn't really like sex" rather than "She hasn't had very good sexual experiences". If this is then repeated with poor-to-mediocre sex for the woman whereas the man has an okay-to-great experience, it's reinforcing the exact same things but it's what they both expect so don't try to change it.

There's loads more that feeds into it as well - porn (aimed at men, largely consumed by men) tends to represent heterosexual sex as a display of domination/aggression rather than mutual exploration, communication, connection, pleasure. Spontaneous vs responsive desire feeds into it. Fluctuation of a woman's level of desire around her menstrual cycle vs the fairly consistent level a man has. YES domestic load/emotional labour - MASSIVELY.

The whole idea of "consent" is fucked up as well if you think about it. You don't "consent" to something fun, usually. You consent to things like medical procedures, sharing your data or a photograph being taken. If your best friend suggested a day at the beach it would not be a natural response to say "I consent", you'd say something more like "Great idea - I'll bring my beach ball" - consent is heavily implied by your enthusiasm.

I liked this article a lot: medium.com/@enagoski/pleasure-is-the-measure-d8c5a2dff33f

LightsInOtherPeoplesHouses · 09/10/2019 12:36

Overall I agree with you BertieBotts.

We don't focus on PIV so much, partly because I've had gynae related problems in the past that caused sex to be painful and DH, as a decent human being, is very averse to causing me pain and discomfort.

But he is the only man I've had any sort of sexual contact with who hasn't pushed me to do things I haven't wanted to, who hasn't carried on after I've said no to something, who has shown any concern for me as a person. Which is very sad.

MoanerLeaser · 09/10/2019 12:42

@BertieBotts
Such a great post. I also agree with your point about consent. My DP pissed me off today because it was three times and because of the general lacklustre rut we're in, but the overall concept of rolling over and "pawing" someone, the first time, I don't feel should necessarily be about "consent" being directly given.

OP posts:
GinDaddy · 09/10/2019 13:10

@AngelsSins

"I can’t believe there are actually women on here defending men"

...?!

So you'd like a thread of monotony where women exclusively line up to kick men as per the OP's premise?

Yes. There are a lot of insensitive men out there who forget the biggest sex organ is between the ears.

Yet these men are people's DHs according to some of the replies on this thread. They didn't know this before they married them?

oh and @BertieBotts your post was a superb read thank you

NewLevelsOfTiredness · 09/10/2019 13:22

@BertieBotts

When you say 'a large minority of women have sexual assault as part of their formative sexual experiences' - I've had three long term relationships with three great women from very different walks of life.

All three felt coerced or pressured into sexual acts during their mid to late teens. No PIV, always consent "technically given" for what occurred, but sexual contact they were uncomfortable with that left negative imprints on them in various ways. Numerous female friends I have been clsoe have had similar tales. One amazing woman I know, in her thirties, is first now recovering suppressed memories of childhood sexual abuse by one of her alcoholic mother's boyfriends.
I know feel that, due to us men (in general, we're not all like that etc etc), it's almost necessary to go with the assumption that a new woman that we enter a relationship has in all likelyhood suffered some form of sexual assault or coercion. And aside from the basic compassion and sensitively we should show as a result, even from a purely selfish perspective it should shape our conduct and approach to sex if we want an actual satisfying sex life within that relationship.

What I will say is that I have an awesome, strong mum, who was very vocal about these issues to me when I was in my mid to late teens. Started teaching me about the realities of how prevalent abuse was then, and to me horror but eventual benefit quite bluntly telling me that future partners wouldn't be satisfied if I just went at sex in whatever way pleasured me (I'm not suggesting all mums should do this. It was a highly embarassing moment for a teenage boy but we had a very strong bond and I respected my mum's wisdom and am grateful for it now!)

ravenmum · 09/10/2019 13:31

Obviouslt NAMALT etc - does this still really need to be said?
Yes, it does. Reading MN shows us that some women do indeed need to be told that this is not what all men are like; that they can and should aim higher when searching for a partner.

AngelsSins · 09/10/2019 13:43

@GinDaddy don’t quote me out of context and then try to make me seem unreasonable.

The day I see one single man on the Internet go to the effort of saying “not all women” is the day I might start caring about a few men taking my posts personally because I don’t type “not all men”.

Lisamac28 · 09/10/2019 14:08

I dunno I think it's that for a lot of women there needs to be this sense that you are strongly desired. Not just a handy hole if you'll excuse my crudeness. So an even simpler thing to do, would be after dinner, to hold the woman's face between your hands and say "you are so beautiful you know". Then a long deep kiss. And then we're off!

I'd run a mile from any man who did this to me now. I had a boyfriend once who used to say and do all the 'romantic stuff'. Turned out that I wasn't the only one he was saying it to, he found it very easy to be romantic, obviously he didn't mean a word of it. My partner now is ace, he's dependable and thoughtful, much better than someone who is good with words to get a sex.

BertieBotts · 09/10/2019 14:18

Raven - good point :) I will accept the need to say NAMALT in that case.

I certainly needed to be told that and I am INSANELY grateful to MNers, actually, for doing so.

BertieBotts · 09/10/2019 14:22

Thank you NewLevels for your interesting point. I agree that men should assume women quite probably have experienced some kind of sexual coercion before and be sensitive to that. I have two sons so I will think about talking to them about it. I have spoken to DS1 a little bit about abuse but not in a sexual sense yet.

gingersausage · 09/10/2019 15:17

@SimonJT why is it that you feel the need to come on every thread where a WOMAN is asking for advice or commiseration or solidarity about her sex life to expound upon your MALE sex with another MALE. Please tell me how it is at all relevant?

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