To think American diplomatic immunity...

[MT2017]

...should not apply here.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-49961679

What's worse is that she was advised to leave by the American Embassy!

The former US citizen who runs our country will not act. Though he might have done if an attractive blonde woman had died in a road crash.

The diplomatic immunity convention regularly causes issues in NYC due to the huge numbers of people who have it because they are part of their national mission to the UN. Landlords won't rent to them without years worth of rent up front because they can't be evicted, they wrack up millions in parking and traffic violations that are never paid. Google NYC diplomatic scofflaws to see what I mean.

I used to see a dentist in the Turtle Bay area, a few blocks away from the UN. Half of his patients were diplomats. I never encountered such a bunch of whiny, entitled wankers.

But what is really starting to piss me off is that this seems to be a campaign targeting a woman who appears to have broken the law, when multiple men have done something similar - with presumed intent (rape?!) - and invoked diplomatic immunity with no media and social media campaign against them. It looks like sexism to me.

Well, I'm not sure about that. First of all, there was a massive hooha over the French case I posted upthread (not in the British media, obviously). Secondly, there is a death involved. And thirdly, she wasn't even a diplomat but an add-on, which arguably makes her immunity even more egregious.

If the American press is reporting like this, as per @MissConductUS link, the US may feel there is a tide of anger against her.

The letter of international law may protect Anne Sacoolas, but the spirit of decency is calling for her to face justice.

I don't agree this is sexist btw. She said she would stay and then left. Whether she was male or female I believe the strength of feeling would be the same.

Well, that’s where I am on this. I hear people calling her out “as a mother” to voluntarily relinquish the legal protections she is entitled to, and I think it is precisely her status as a dependent that is the issue: she’s a woman, and is expected to be a martyr as a consequence.

Her husband isn’t a diplomat, she isn’t a diplomat. She gained that status to protect herself from investigation.

The ‘as a mother’ I don’t think is a martyr thing, it’s an empathy. As a parent you have more empathy towards other parents. In the same way the Dunn family have shown her empathy, but she had not shown it back.

@seaweedandmarchingbands do you think if her husband had done this there wouldn't have been an outcry?

This is about the crime and the response to it by her / her actions, not the fact that she is female.

There is a gender aspect in that as a trailing spouse she's far more likely to be a woman than a man, of course.

@weshmagueule same question as to seaweed then, do you think if her husband had done this there wouldn't have been an outcry?

@seaweedandmarchingbands do you think if her husband had done this there wouldn't have been an outcry?

Much less. We know - at least I do - that women are held to higher moral standards than men. We know that there are cases in the recent past where men have committed crimes and been shielded by diplomatic immunity, including rape. Where was the pressure to send them back? Where was
the pressure for them to voluntarily relinquish their legal protections?

The ‘as a mother’ I don’t think is a martyr thing, it’s an empathy. As a parent you have more empathy towards other parents. In the same way the Dunn family have shown her empathy, but she had not shown it back.

Then people would be saying ‘as a parent’ wouldn’t they? They’re specifically decrying the fact that she, as a female parent, seems to have - we don’t even know whether this is true - chosen to protect herself rather than throw herself on the mercy of the courts. Which is just bizarre. People availing themselves of legal protection is the cultural norm both here and in the US.

Boris will do nothing. He is desperate to be onside with Trump. Plus he’s an American too and ‘America first’ and all that. There’s a ton of American private health insurers ready to fly over here on a November 1st and we don’t want the contract terms to be become even more unfavourable so we can’t upset them.

Poor Harry’s family.

do you think if her husband had done this there wouldn't have been an outcry?

I"m sure there would have been, driven in part by the nature of today's 24 hour news cycle and social media. It's much harder to hush things up and keep them local these days.

I've just looked up the Zairean ambassador case as my memories were kind of hazy. It seems he voluntarily resigned his diplomatic post to face the court, against the advice of the Zairean parliament. It makes a point in the article of saying he did so because he was a father himself. He was arrested at the crash site and agreed to a breath test. Link (in French): www.liberation.fr/france-archive/1997/03/26/l-ambassadeur-chauffard-etait-trop-presse-le-procureur-a-requis-trois-ans-avec-sursis-et-une-amende-_198923

WeshMaGueule

I don’t believe what I read in these cases. It’s exactly the way I don’t believe it when hostages make speeches that say, “This speech is entirely my own idea and I am being treated very, very well.” Sure you are. It’s far better politically for the host country for the person concerned to say they are “voluntarily” giving up their immunity. Saves a political storm at home, centred on why the ex-diplomat or dependent has been thrown to the wolves.

The truth is, we don’t know what’s going on behind the scenes.

Well, I'm sure you're right in a lot of cases, but it says in the article that his resignation was seen very badly in Zaire as bowing to colonial domination and he was called an Uncle Tom.

From the Washington Post at the time: "In an interview today on French TF1 television, Baya said: "As a father myself, I realize the tragedy and the {parents'} suffering. I know that only the trial they are demanding could bring them some comfort. . . . I will not be in peace until this judgment has been passed," he said.

Regarding a similar case, Georgian President Eduard Shevardnadze has promised to lift the immunity of Gueorgui Makharadze, who holds the rank of minister at Georgia's embassy in Washington. Makharadze was driving the car that caused an auto accident near Dupont Circle on Jan. 3 that killed 16-year-old Joviane Waltrick. He remains in Washington awaiting the outcome of a police investigation."

YABU to say it shouldn’t apply. It is fundamental to international relations. YANBU to think that the US should have waived immunity.

All those saying she should do the right thing, I don't think it is possible to waive your own diplomatic immunity.

It is possible to resign and lose it though.

Thing is we now know it wasn't diplomatic immunity, but in fact the UK granting immunity as a result of a treaty with the US. Which isn't the same thing.

Personally I'm now much more intrigued by why a US intelligence operative needed - and was granted - immunity from prosecution in the UK. What the fuck was he up to ? Burgling ? Stalking ? Assassinating troublesome people who visit the UK ? In the absence of any explanation, it's hard not to adduce sinister motives.

The American Government always does this, it’s their policy (where possible) not to allow American citizens to be prosecuted outside America. It’s happened so many times. They don’t respect other legal systems even in such a clear cut case as this.

From The Independent:

'Donald Trump has defended the wife of a US diplomat who killed a British teenager in a road accident, suggesting it is difficult to drive on the other side of the road and that "it happens".'

www-independent-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-harry-dunn-anne-sacoolas-car-crash-us-diplomat-uk-a9149746.html?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&amp&usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fworld%2Famericas%2Fus-politics%2Ftrump-harry-dunn-anne-sacoolas-car-crash-us-diplomat-uk-a9149746.html

Diplomatic impunity should not apply to non-diplomats, ie family, and there needs to be a reassessment of its use generally. Impunity is not a spelling error, it's a view on its existance.