To ask Leavers what is actually wrong with the backstop?

[Bearbehind]

The current, UK wide backstop in the Withdrawal Agreement is simply a safety net to ensure no hard border is required until we find a technological solution which enables us to leave CU/SM

What’s the problem with that?

Why is it such a big issue for Leavers?

I can only imagine it’s either that

• Leavers still think ‘they need us more than we need them’ so we’d never actually need a technological border anyway as we’ll end up with the same terms outside the EU

Or

• They know the whole WA is actually shit and worse than we have now so the backstop is the tangible way to stop it being approved

So nothing actually wrong with it then 😂

As you well know, the backstop does NOT allow us to leave the EU when we find a technological solution to the border. It keeps us prisoner in the EU forever unless the EU permits us to leave.

As we have seen recently NO technological solution will ever be acceptable to the EU, therefore we would NEVER be allowed to leave.

So its Boris deal now or no deal from 31st (or as soon after Boris/Farage can win a GE).

They don’t actually know. They just parrot what frog face says and desperately try to lift their knuckles from the ground.

Because the backstop means we don't actually leave.

It also cause political problems with Scotland.

PS I voted remain but do understand the leave point of view

desperately try to lift their knuckles from the ground
wow, second reply. I think that's a record

What they said No matter how you voted it is pretty easy to see the issues.

And yes, once the backstop is removed the current WA will have to be rejected... as it already has been numerous times without mention of the backstop!

So, as I have said before... the NaySayers have us trapped.

No Deal is unlawful
The Deal is unacceptable
Another Deal is not being offered

We have succesfully been NaySayed into a corner.

And no, revoking is not an option either as the other half of the House will then become the NaySayers!

Politicians have screwed our democracy whilst trying to fool us that they only have our best interests at heart!

NEITHER side have any right in this! If you still think you are a Remainer you need your head testing... as you do if you still claim to be a Leaver!

We should all be shouting to get ALL politicians OUT and kick starting our democracy all over again! We really do need to revolt!

They don’t actually know. They just parrot what frog face says and desperately try to lift their knuckles from the ground. Nice of you to identify yourself as a politic know-nothing!

We can all avoid taking you seriously now!

27reginafelangee, why will it cause political problems with Scotland?

We should all be shouting to get ALL politicians OUT and kick starting our democracy all over again! We really do need to revolt!

Starting to agree with this. Parliament and MPs have shown themselves incapable and need to be replaced. A good start would be the next GE where any MP who hasn't voted in accordance with the majority in their constituency will almost certainly be booted out, and rightly so.

It will mean acknowledging that the leave vote was a lie. Accepting that they can't just get out of the EU without ensuring others aren't screwed over(NI and ROI), that they needed to plan and it didn't happen.

It would mean saying to the EU 'yeah, you're right, this makes sense, we couldn't work it out ourselves, thanks for your smarts'. Doesn't suit their narrative.

It will mean acknowledging that the leave vote was a lie. What does that even mean? It was ALL lies! From beginning to end. It was a supposedly flamboyant gesture made to show everyone how marvellous Dave was!

And at this moment in history does it matter?

In or out we, as a country, have NO DEMOCRACY! We have a bunch of politicians who cannot bring themselves to do what their consituents asked them to. Why? Because they know better than the 'common man'? That's not how our democracy is supposed to work!

They couldn't get off their smug backsides and make a good enough case, clear enough explanation when it mattered... still can't now! They have behaved outrageously over the last 3 years.

No matter how you voted it surely must be clear that we have been spectacularly failed by our elected representatives?

Yes but the backstop won't go away, it can't be fudged with lies the way 'we will gets deals' etc has been.

Would be interesting to know what the EU would say if the boot was on the other foot.

Say Scotland does become independent and join the EU. When they come to sort out the border would it be acceptable to keep Scotland in the UK single market and customs union until the EU can come up with 'acceptable' to England border solutions ie trap Scotland in the UK forever.

Are they making a rod for their own back? revenge

Yes YABU

There IS a Brexit board you know .

Should be named Remain though as you lot have the monopoly on there.

As we have seen recently NO technological solution will ever be acceptable to the EU, therefore we would NEVER be allowed to leave.

That’s simply not true.

We don’t have a technological solution right now so, quite rightly, we can’t rely on one.

But if we’re so convinced we’ll be able to develop one, why would we ‘NEVER’ be allowed to leave?

There IS a Brexit board you know

I do know - an it’s the same old faces on there.

I’m more interested in what those why don’t spend hours on that section think of the backstop now.

I’m convinced a lot of people don’t even know what it is. And I’m not being patronising, just basing that on other comments.

But if we’re so convinced we’ll be able to develop one, why would we ‘NEVER’ be allowed to leave?

Because no matter how good a solution we develop the EU will never accept it. We will be trapped in the EU asylum forever.

It would be complete madness to surrender the last of our sovereignty to the undemocratic rulers of foreign countries the EU.

Bear you just seem to be trying to stir up hatred.

walking, I’m not at all.

I’m trying to understand what the problem with it is, and, as you’ve proven, there isn’t a rational problem with it. You’ve just convinced yourself there is.

Until people start to accept what is and isn’t reality, we’ll never move on.

The EU just want a solution that protects the SM and the GFA

Bearbehind

Good to see that you are still lumping all leavers in together.

but hey

Until people start to accept what is and isn’t reality, we’ll never move on.

Say Scotland does become independent and join the EU. When they come to sort out the border would it be acceptable to keep Scotland in the UK single market and customs union until the EU can come up with 'acceptable' to England border solutions ie trap Scotland in the UK forever.

A hard border between England and Scotland wouldn't be a problem given that their isn't an international peact treaty to honour and hundereds of years of sectarianism to keep a lid on.

It's pretty simple why it's unacceptable, the backstop if implementated is completely upto EU whether it is removed once technology is implemented not the UK and Northern Ireland, the EU could forever say this unacceptable.

It gives all the power about it being removed to the EU.

Until people start to accept what is and isn’t reality, we’ll never move on

What is incorrect about that statement boney?

Do you agree that the backstop is a problem?

Do you agree the EU will use it as an excuse whatever solution we put in place?

But why would they do that heresme?

The EU are fed up of us - they’d be happy if we just left, as long as we don’t force a hard border.

Bearbehind

There is nothing wrong with the statement in and of itself.

It is that you don't follow your own doctrine.

You are still stating that leavers as one entity believe in one thing.

This has been disproved many times.

And you and others will never "move on" unless you accept the "reality" of this.

It is quite simple. The vast bulk of the discussions and material from both the leave and the remain campaigns leading up to the referendum covered the pros and the cons of the UK taking back control including amongst against other things the ability to negotiate trade deals with other countries in their own right.

The backstop not only prevents them doing this in the short term, but actually requires the EU to agree ( and an EU agreement means 27 countries agreeing) that UK has met any criteria allowing the UK to create trade deals independent of the EU. So the EU maintains control. This is not a working together situation or working to a common goal. Now Macron has already said that France would keep the UK in the backstop until they agree a number of specific concessions on the trade negotiations with the EU e.g. Fisheries. Barrier said in secret though he allowed it to be videoed and broadcast, that the backstop was a negotiating strategy for the EU. So (1) it potentially permanently removes control from the UK (2) it prevents the UK doing its own trade deals until the EU is happy for them to do so which navy be many many years (3) it is primarily just a negotiating strategy for the EU to pressure the UK into giving concessions (4) the EU is not acting in good faith both explicitly and under the covers and so there is no trust that they will use the back stop in good faith. (5) I am not sure on this but I think the EU is also asking the UK to pay for the privilege of being in the backstop, I.E. Continuing to pay membership fees ( I need to check on that)

I think there are many more issues with it, but these are just a few. Basically the EU wants to maintain control over the UK and this is, in their own words-(Barnier) just a negotiating strategy.