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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask Leavers what is actually wrong with the backstop?

83 replies

Bearbehind · 06/10/2019 11:06

The current, UK wide backstop in the Withdrawal Agreement is simply a safety net to ensure no hard border is required until we find a technological solution which enables us to leave CU/SM

What’s the problem with that?

Why is it such a big issue for Leavers?

I can only imagine it’s either that

  • Leavers still think ‘they need us more than we need them’ so we’d never actually need a technological border anyway as we’ll end up with the same terms outside the EU

Or

  • They know the whole WA is actually shit and worse than we have now so the backstop is the tangible way to stop it being approved
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Walkingdeadfangirl · 06/10/2019 18:42

walking if you genuinely believe that, nothing I say will ever convince you Hence the country is increasingly polarised. It doesn't help you just poking a finger going why, but why, but why, I don't believe you, your wrong. Followed with "just parrot what frog face says and desperately try to lift their knuckles from the ground."

It’s just the ‘they need us more than we need them’ argument though
How so? With all these nonsense claims being made we need some facts. When we leave the EU we will have to deal with the facts, not project fear or leavers unicorns.
I dont think anybody needs anybody more than the other. We both need each other in different ways. And post Brexit we will deal with each issue (or not) and we will move on. Its not just a slogan, we need to just move on, come what may.

Pull the sticking plaster off, look at the wound. Everyone can give their diagnosis, we have an election and decide who's treatment to try. Maybe the wound will heal perfectly, maybe their will be a scar. But right now things are getting worse with everyone catastrophizing about whats under the plaster.

scaryteacher · 06/10/2019 18:47

Below is the text from an article in the DT by Lord Trimble who could be said to know a bit about the GFA, as he won the Nobel Prize for it.

The Prime Minister’s proposals to replace the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland (the ‘backstop'), published this week, have received a cool and sceptical reception in Brussels and have been dismissed by Dublin. They are seen by both as failing to meet the mark. However, this may not be so much a result of the content of the UK’s proposals as with the negotiating position of the EU.

As we set out for Policy Exchange, there are four problems with this position which if recognised and addressed by all parties would make a deal far more achievable; in short, the Protocol/backstop does not protect the Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement but rather damages it; the EU has taken authority for areas of the negotiations where it either does not have the primary authority or lacks authority; the EU has set objectives for the UK proposals that the current Protocol does not meet and it has changed — and appears to be still changing — those objectives.

It has become increasingly clear that far from ‘protect[ing] the Good Friday Agreement in all its dimensions’ (Article 1.3) the Protocol actually wrecks the Good Friday Agreement. The Unionists in Northern Ireland have been consistent in this view since publication of the Withdrawal Agreement in November 2018.

The Protocol, if it was activated, would alter the governance of Northern Ireland, without consent, reduce the powers of the devolved administration, override the checks and balances on North-South co-operation which were key to getting agreement in 1998, alter the status of Northern Ireland as well as undermine democracy there. In short, the constitutional settlement of 1998 would be overturned and the principles that underpin its workings overridden.

This has major implications for the current negotiations. The onus has been on the UK to come up with alternatives to the Protocol, alternatives that are to provide a workable legal solution to the problem of Brexit as posed by the amended negotiating guidelines and directives of the EU. However, the Protocol is not, in the language of the Commission, a ‘legally operational solution’ because it fails to protect the Good Friday Agreement. The Commission has created a playing field that is not level. The UK cannot be held to a standard that the current Withdrawal Agreement fails to reach.

We need a new level-playing field for the negotiations that prioritises respect not only for the legal order of the EU but of the international treaty between the UK and Ireland. The current UK proposals on amending the Withdrawal Agreement, as outlined by Boris Johnson in his letter to Jean-Claude Juncker last week, meet these requirements in full.

Concerns on the border would be more than addressed by increased British-Irish co-operation and a joint determination to make these proposals work using the institutions of the Good Friday Agreement. Together, the British and Irish are well placed to maximise the potential benefits of the ‘imaginative and flexible solutions’ the EU negotiators have always realised would be necessary to secure the Single Market whilst avoiding a hard border. It would meet all the legally required criteria, and fulfil the aims of Article 50, whilst respecting key principles such as subsidiarity and proportionality.

Lord Trimble, a former First Minister of Northern Ireland, won the Nobel Peace Prize for his role in securing the 1998 Belfast Agreement. Roderick Crawford works in conflict resolution.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 06/10/2019 18:50

Remember, we are a country with residents who called the police when KFC ran out of chicken
LOL is that the best you have. People like a good moan and then the next day everything goes back to normal. Social media is probably to blame for that nonsense.

OMG we cant have chicken if its washed in chlorine, but its fine to put it in our water or wash our vegetables in it.

Bearbehind · 06/10/2019 18:52

walking you are firmly entrenched in the ‘EU bad’ mentality. As are many other Leavers.

I’ve long thought no deal and seeing the actual repercussions is the only option now.

We just differ in what we think those repercussions will be.

I hope you are right and they won’t be significant.

I suspect, based on all the actual evidence, you are completely wrong.

Only time will tell.

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Voila212 · 06/10/2019 18:56

Boris Johnson Brexit agreement is a threat to peace
The issue with the border has to be addressed before any trade deal can go ahead, you can't trust the UK government. NI businesses have come out against his deal as it would ruin their businesses.

Bearbehind · 06/10/2019 19:02

Exactly voila - no deal doesn’t make the border issues go away.

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Walkingdeadfangirl · 06/10/2019 19:13

walking you are firmly entrenched in the ‘EU bad’ mentality
Sorry you think that. But I actually dont. I think like most countries it has its good and bad aspects.

I want to leave now because it was the result of the vote. And the more MPs/Eurocrats try to ignore it, the more I believe we have to fight for it. Its a simple matter of democracy, I do not want to live in a country that can just ignore the votes it doesn't like.

Bearbehind · 06/10/2019 19:19

I do actually understand that walking - all this court action etc is only making things worse.

TM should have been honest and said Cameron left her with a shit storm that couldn’t be delivered.

She should have acknowledged what was actually going to be possible and managed expectations from day one.

Instead she went to the other extreme, made up her own red lines, thus making a sensible Brexit impossible, and BJ has just upped the ante.

Now people who support Leave have been led to believe that anything is possible - and it’s really not

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Walkingdeadfangirl · 06/10/2019 19:20

no deal doesn’t make the border issues go away
But after no deal we will resolve the border issues in practise and something like the Boris plan will emerge bit by bit and after a while will be demonstrated to be working. Then we can negotiate a FTA without any need for a backstop.

Otherwise we will start to source all needs from outside the EU and eventually we can turn to the EU and say, "you know what we aren't bothered about a FTA anymore, so whatever, your loss".

Walkingdeadfangirl · 06/10/2019 19:28

Now people who support Leave have been led to believe that anything is possible

What is it that you think 'leavers' believe that is impossible?
I don't want have any expectations other than to actually leave the EU. This idea of remainers that we want 'unicorns' is just part of the spin to try and ignore the vote.

I dont think its fair to blame TM, she did actually get a deal. You can blame the ERG for not voting for it but there was a lot more MPs that could have made up the shortfall. Especially MPs who voted for the referendum and starting A50.

All MPs are to 'blame' for this, if blame is the right word.

Bearbehind · 06/10/2019 19:34

What is it that you think 'leavers' believe that is impossible?
I don't want have any expectations other than to actually leave the EU. This idea of remainers that we want 'unicorns' is just part of the spin to try and ignore the vote.

I’ve yet to meet or speak to a Leaver who truly believes the effects Leaving will be felt by them at all

They all think it’ll just carry on as before and all the ills of the country will magically disappear.

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Voila212 · 06/10/2019 19:36

But it won't work, the people of NI don't want it, businesses will be ruined by delays and extra expenses.Also Boris has based his agreement on technology that doesn't exist. He also has the Stormont assembly voting every four years whether to stay in the single market which has been set up in a way that the DUP having the overall veto. That will cause complete instability for businesses in Ireland. No government in their right mind would agree to it yet the general public in Britain feel highly indignant that Ireland didn't agree with it. So it's ok for the UK government to not vote for Mays deal but how dare Ireland not agree to Boris's. As for trading outside the EU, good luck with that. Other countries will know the UK will be desperate and will use that to their advantage. Even if it is possible to get a deal with America it's been reported that Trump wants the UK to lower their standards with food, the environment and working conditions, so chlorinated chicken will be the least of your issues.

Voila212 · 06/10/2019 19:40

I think your mps on both sides have a lot to answer for. They should have worked together instead of trying to better each other. In Ireland all parties are supporting the Irish prime when it comes to Brexit.

Eyewhisker · 06/10/2019 19:49

The problem with the backstop is that it is UK wide. It should be a NI only backstop. Then GB can do all the trade agreements it wants with no issue. Teresa May insisted on a UK-wide backstop to please the DUP, but that didn’t work.

A NI-only backstop is supported by a clear majority of the people of NI. It can be put to a referendum, or vote of the Stormont MLAs. I cannot repeat often enough that the DUP are not at all representative of the majority of NI opinion. They are nutters. If the Tory party had not set itself an objective of pleasing the DUP this mess would not have happened. The backstop is popular in NI, Johnson’s shite ERG-DUP proposal is not.

Eyewhisker · 06/10/2019 19:51

Walking dead girl, would you be OK with a NI-only backstop, if it were approved by a NI-only referendum?

Walkingdeadfangirl · 06/10/2019 20:06

I’ve yet to meet or speak to a Leaver who truly believes the effects Leaving will be felt by them at all

Its a bit hard to talk to people irl about Brexit, when I do talk to other leavers they are tend to be the sort that dont worry about problems until they actually happen. Otherwise you spend you life paralysed with fear.

would you be OK with a NI-only backstop, if it were approved by a NI-only referendum?
In theory yes, in practise no.
a) Its another referendum
b) Scotland would also want the option of being in the backstop
c) Do you make the result legally binding or 'advisory'.
d) What if the result is 52:48?
e) This should have been decided before the referendum, it would stink of ignoring a UK wide referendum.

Probably better to give them a referendum on merging with the Republic and staying in the EU or staying with the UK and leaving the EU.

Bearbehind · 06/10/2019 20:12

It’s a funny old world isn’t it as I actually agree with every word of that post walking

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DoctorAllcome · 06/10/2019 20:17

As an outsider looking in, it seems to me the problem with the backstop is that it keeps the U.K. indefinitely within the EU Customs Union (goods) and Single Market (services). It essentially postpones Brexit. You also have the freedom of movement continuing.....
Boris proposal is only for agriculture & food in NI to stay within the EU Customs Union. It’s a backstop-lite.
If there is no deal, the border will be a problem because U.K. will become a 3rd country and you can’t not have an open border because lol freedom of movement will be a joke compared to the back door you’ll have.

But, generally, leavers have a major issue with the backstop because it is a de facto delay of Brexit. Now, the thing that gets me is that every politician and industry Titan pushing Brexit has moved their assets and money out of the U.K. Hell the euro clearing house that London did already moved to NYC so that’s a few billion in taxes coming to Uncle Sam now instead of the U.K. treasury.
Everyone influential pushing Brexit is literally betting their money on the U.K. economy tanking.

scaryteacher · 06/10/2019 21:25

Which euro clearing houses have moved? The three main ones still seem to be London based.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 07/10/2019 08:47

It’s a funny old world isn’t it as I actually agree with every word of that post walking

Not really funny. It is the very reason we are where we are. Remain or Leave we ALL agree on very many issues. We just disagree on how to achieve them!

There is so much to have out with this still. For instance the issues in Ireland, as in the whole island, SHOULD have been addressed from day 1. Sectarian issues have affected the whole of the UK before. Many of us here lived through inumerable bomb scares, know people who died on the mainland because of sectarian violence. We SHOULD be able to discuss them and overcome those issues. That is one issue that should NEVER have been ignored, discussed quietly etc. It should always have been high prifile - so that everybody could understand it and discuss it and help overcome it. The island of Ireland needs to do something different... we all should have been involved in supporting a better outcome!

There was an increase in sectarian violence before Brexit, it has become worse since. Could an open, cross party discussion have stopped that?

jasjas1973 · 07/10/2019 09:29

But after no deal we will resolve the border issues in practise and something like the Boris plan will emerge bit by bit and after a while will be demonstrated to be working. Then we can negotiate a FTA without any need for a backstop

What happens in the meantime? the moment we move away from EU regs, there needs to be customs checks in NI.

Name a FTA that gets rid of a border? the EU/Canada ? nope, neither does the EU/Japan one, even the USA/Canada one doesn't.

To do that we would need to have some sort of CU/SM at least in NI so we are back to square one and years more of brexit....and risks wrecking the peace process.

Bearbehind · 07/10/2019 09:36

That’s what I’ll never understand with this jas - Leavers who talk as if no deal is the end and all the issues we can’t resolve now will suddenly disappear.

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jasjas1973 · 07/10/2019 09:50

Yes Bear it is the narrative of "Clean Break" as if walking away from a trading bloc and our obligations in NI is as easy as changing energy supplier.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 07/10/2019 15:11

Leavers who talk as if no deal is the end and all the issues we can’t resolve now will suddenly disappear. That's because you are not listening!

Leavers, like Remainers, are fully aware that No Deal means that ALL deals with the EU will have to be done after we leave. The leave date is the beginning of wider negotations th the rest of the world too, asthey cannot be done before we leave. I think you are simply being deaf to that.

What you are also ignorning is main issue with The Deal... locking the UK into part of the EU. That was never part of the Leave / Remain campaign either. But you haven't addressed that, even though many posters have mentioned it - including myself in my Fuck All Politicians rants!

Bearbehind · 07/10/2019 15:28

But you haven't addressed that, even though many posters have mentioned it - including myself in my Fuck All Politicians rants!

I have addressed it by saying that I disagree that the EU intend to force us to stay indefinitely.

It’s only until we find an actual solution to the border.

But it suits Leavers narrative generally to just blame the EU for everything rather than concede that any solution suggested so far has been utterly unworkable

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