to wonder if dd is turning into a mean girl??

[SevenOhFour]

dd9 has been best friends with 'Sarah' since they were 5 or 6. there has only been the two of them playing together at playtimes and they see each other out of school a lot. in the past 2 years 'jess' has become good friends with my dd, however Sarah and jess don't get on very well, very different personalities whereas my dd is somewhere in the middle.

Sarah I think feels upset that her friendship is now shared with jess and jess has a tendency to try to leave Sarah out. dd has tried to be the peacemaker for a while but in the past 6 months or so she has become a lot closer to jess.

a few weeks ago Sarah's mum text me to say Sarah had come home very upset because the others had been leaving her out at school, I spoke to dd and told her this was unacceptable and under no circumstances should she leave her out, they've been friends a long time.

today sarahs mum text again saying Sarah was crying and saying my dd and jess have been having private playtimes, telling Sarah they wanted it to be just the two of them for a while.

I asked dd about this and she said that Sarah doesn't speak at all to jess, and barely speaks to my dd when jess is there. she agrees to play a game but when they start playing, Sarah just sits there looking miserable or says its boring. when dd asks her what she wants to play, Sarah says she doesn't know or isn't bothered.

I don't know what to do. on the one hand I do not want dd being the mean girl and leaving her friend out, but on the other it seems she has been the peace maker between the two for so long and Sarah is only ever cheerful when its just her and dd. whenever jess is there she moans, is miserable and complains about everything.

my dd is no angel I am not naïve, but it feels like the friendship has grown apart and where dd is closer to jess, sarah doesn't have that with anyone else.

aibu to say she has to suck it up and include sarah even if shes being miserable all the time? its so horrible to be left out, I just don't know what to advise.

what ive suggested so far is that they ask everyone what they want to play, then play, and if sarah is grumpy just get on with playing and if she wants to join in she can. no need to say 'we want to play on our own'

wwyd?

Just to add I had a similar friend in my teenage years. I had a very intense friendship with one girl who then followed me over to my friendship group who then got very tired of her constant jealousy over me. It all came to a head, my teenage friends were blunter with her than they should have been out of frustration and she was very upset (she had other mental health issues at the time and threatened suicide). I didn't have much to do with her for several years but we've since rekindled our friendship, she's in a much better place and is now my only old friend and probably my best friend. If their friendship is strong, it may stand the test of time even if they do cool off each other a bit for some time.

Have you considered speaking to her teacher. It happens a lot around this age. If the teacher is aware then she can talk about friendships in PHSE lessons and perhaps also encourage Sarah to play with another friend sometimes. Some children, more often girls, find they like to be the exclusive friend whereas girls like your daughter want to expand their friendship groups. Encourage her to be kind to Sarah but also let her chose who she plays with as long as she isn't shunning her friend completely. Could they have a playdate after school?

My daughter is the Jess in a very similar threesome – so similar, in fact, that for a moment I thought your post was about them! (But it's not, as my Jess was with 'Sarah' at a sports activity after school, so 'Sarah' hadn't gone home crying!). From my Jess's perspective, she and the middle friend have done everything they can to make the Sarah in their scenario join in the games they play but her sulking and her rudeness towards my DD ruins every playtime. Sarah simply won't accept that the middle girl wants to pursue another friendship and at nine years old she's old enough to be made aware of the consequences. I think you need to tell Sarah's mum that unless Sarah stops trying to control who your daughter plays with and learns to compromise and accepts that Jess is one of your DD's good friends too, this situation isn't going to get any better. Oh, and she's leaving herself out of the games, it's not them doing it.

It says in her original post that Jess has a tendency to leave Sarah out. Saying that they want a "private playtime" is not doing everything they can to include Sarah.

I wouldn't take at complete face value your daughter's protestations that it's Jess and Sarah not getting on while she is the attempted
If you are concerned your DD may be turning into a mean girl, can you sit and talk with her and Sarah the truth will more than likely come out.
It's probably not the done thing now, when we were kids we'd always be made go the persons house discuss the grevious with the other child, forced handshake at the finish.
The truth always came out though.

If Sarah is such a moody sulky girl how did they remain BFF's for so long.

Perhaps because the friendship was always on Sarah's terms, i.e. one-on-one?

And now it's not, and that's not OK with Sarah, hence the sulking.

There is a huge amount of projecting going on on this thread, with people making assumptions about all three girls, which may be bang on the mark, or wildly off it.

I can understand Sarah's upset.

I can understand the OP's DD's frustration.

And I can also understand Jess's likely 'why does OP's DD continually indulge this? / why doesn't Sarah like me?' annoyance.

Nobody is doing anything wrong here - as long as everyone continues to try to involve and include people.

However, everyone also has to be willing to 'come to the party', so to speak, otherwise this is going to end in tears.

Perhaps because the friendship was always on Sarah's terms, i.e. one-on-one?
Perhaps though from OP's description on their personalities. Jess being the popular one more likely rule maker, Sarah the opposite, OP's DD somewhere in the middle.
All we know is OP's DD is the peacemaker.

Kids at this age don’t seem see the value in large groups and how much fun you can all have together, my dd was the same.
However now she is in secondary the girls seem to want as many people to come out as possible and get bored if there is just two.
I think they need to work it out for themselves. Nobody should be forcing your daughter to play with anyone or to accept emotional blackmail. I would teach her to say sorry your upset but we want to play this game, it would be fun if you joined in.

Sarah’s mum sees her upset and has tried to resolve it but kids today are so delicate because parents try to solve their problems. Learning how to negotiate friendships is more vital than ever these days as kids are used to hanging out on screens.

How about your DD spends some times with Jess, other times with Sarah? I think that's what we would do ourselves, we wouldn't expect all our friends to get on, or all hang out together every time, and not all our friends know each other or get on.

This way your DD will get to keep and make the most of both her friends, and is being a good friend to both.

You’re trying to sort out friendship issues over which in reality you have very little control. Because of this, I really think don’t understand why no one has contacted the school about this issue, especially Sarah’s mum. You may be her friend but realistically she can’t expect you to micromanage what is happening in the playground.

I would go and see the teacher or email if you can’t do pick up. Explain the situation, what has been said and get them to address this. I’m a bit confused as to the friendship dynamics. But the teachers can observe and unpick this. Is Jess being inclusive, is Sarah being given opportunities to play etc? Etc.

My dd was dropped by her friends and play dates dried up when she was in yr1. I got her busy with extra curricular activities. Idk if you take your dd to any clubs. I found it helped to teach dd a lot about friendships and the benefit of having lots of friends, which she replicated at school.

As you are friends with Sarah’s mum, I would try to weave in the conversation something about widening friendship groups, that you’ve learnt it can be really positive for children to have outside interests and find friends outside of school etc. I would get your dd involved in a club, where she doesn’t know anyone and maybe Sarah’s mum could do the same in a different club. This way the girls will be thinking of other people, not just the few kids at school.

Interestedwoman
I get what you’re saying. But we also wouldn’t be all in the same place and observing the meet ups with the other person. My dd did this as she had 2 groups of friends. One of them came up with a rota whereby mon / weds she played with one set, tues / thurs another, then on fri dd decided who she played with. The school put a stop to this as they expect everyone to be inclusive. This was yr5 btw.

OP's DD doesn't like Sarah anymore.
Honestly OP it is ok for them to break up , my DD still smiles to her ex BFF.
They get over things much quicker than you think. It is not right to make your DD play with Sarah if the friendship is over.
Relationships end this is the same.
You dont want to teach her to put up with someone who makes her unhappy, tell her to stay friendly be kind but not play together.
Tell the DM to encourage ending the friendship and moving on for all the girls.

It's really tricky OP! I think it's good that you are talking openly with your DD about it, and trying to encourage her to be kind, though not a pushover. I think you were spot on in saying:

I have told dd that she musn't go off for private playtimes anymore, and should just tell sarah theyd like her to play, but if she starts to be moody about it then to just ignore this.

We've got a similar ish situation (though not identical). My DD (age 8) had a group of friends, but due to class merges etc there are 3 of them left together. Over the last couple of years she's become particularly close to Jenny. The third girl Sally is nice but DD has just never clicked with her as much. Sally is a nice girl and not spiteful or anything but she tends to create a lot of drama, finding minor reasons why either she or someone else is upset. If Sally doesn't want to play exactly what DD and Jenny are playing then she goes off in a huff and if DD goes after her she just runs off again (I've seen her do this). DD and Jenny are a bit fed up with it.

However looking from Sally's point of view ... although I've always encouraged DD to be kind and I think she tries to be, when I've observed the three girls it's obvious that DD and Jenny are super-close and Sally is on the outside, and I feel really sorry for Sally. But my DD is shy herself and asking her to feign more friendliness towards someone she doesn't click that well with is actually quite a big ask. I've told DD to try and include Sally but not to feel she has to keep going after her if she strops off. I feel bad for all three of them and am hoping it resolves itself soon!

Working in school I see this a lot, seems especially bad around year 4

Sounds to me like 3 a crowd and Sarah is struggling with having to share your Dd with this other girl... which really isn't your Dd problem as long as she isn't being mean and is willing to include Sarah

Perhaps though from OP's description on their personalities. Jess being the popular one more likely rule maker,

Why are you assuming that Jess is the 'popular' one? The 'rule-maker'...? This is pure projection.

The OP herself says:

I don't feel as though jess would drop dd, (although who knows) as jess has never really had a close friend before she joined in dd and sarahs friendship group

🤷🏻‍♀️

I suspect the DD and Jess just click, get on well, gel. The friendship is easy and that, no doubt, makes her a more appealing friend than one who only ever wants to be 1-on-1, and sulks when that doesn't happen.

The biggest problem I see here is you and Sarah's Mum being too involved.
If Sarah is coming home crying from school - then her Mother should be talking to the teachers.
If you are worried your DD is becoming a 'mean girl" then as well as talking to her you should be talking to the teachers.
My DC's primary school at time did various things to help "playground dynamics" including getting parents to go in and teach old fashioned "playground games", running little clubs etc.

I think to be honest the OP's DD is likely to learn a big lesson here. Because Sarah will hopefully move on, and not be there when OP's DD wants her as a friend.
But friendships do change.

@OooErMissus I assumed Jess was the popular one. 👇
this is what I suspect. I think dd has always been quiet with a bit of a hyper side, sarah is very quiet, and jess is very lively and fun, and brings that side out of dd which I think dd likes from OP

OP's DD is the popular one. She's the one the other two want to play with but they're not mature enough to deal with having to share yet.

OP. My DD has had similar and I warn you, it changes...a year after DD had a similar issue, the other two upped and dumped her.

She was left flitting between other groups for a few terms. Was horrible!

Then it all changed again...one of the other two left the other girl and joined "the cool group" so the left out kid returned to DD....now the three of them have a somewhat uneasy friendship but it's more or less ok.

It changes constantly. Tell DD that she can play with who she likes and if Sarah does not want to join in with the game, then she doesn't have to but they should still be nice to her BUT get on with playing what they want to.

Ensuring they ask her to join in.

I would suggest that your dd and Sarah maybe did the odd thing together outside of school without Jess if that is acceptable to your dd, but under no circumstances should you forced your dd to include someone that is being sulky if she doesnt want to.

We had exactly this situation in Yrs 4 and 5 too - my DD caught in the middle of long-time bestie 'quiet Sarah' type (who wanted an exclusive BFF situation with her), and a 'lively and fun Jess' type, who took my DD away from that. Unfortunately the Sarah and Jess in our scenario also HATED each other, just to compound issues, while my DD liked them both.

I felt awful about it, as am great friends with Sarah's mum, and could see that Sarah (and her mum) were both struggling with it a bit. Huge credit to Sarah's mum that she didn't get too involved, didn't kick up a fuss, and just quietly encouraged Sarah to make other friends, and by the time they reached Yr6 it had all blown over, and all the girls played together in larger groups. I'm not sure I would have been that sensible about the whole thing had I been her, but she does have an older daughter, so had possibly been through similar before, and knew it would all blow over eventually, and that it's a good life-lesson for the kids to learn to navigate these tricky friendship waters.

As everyone else has said, you can't dictate their friendships; only encourage them to always be kind. It will blow over, so try not to get too heavy-handed or involved with it. (And PS, it only gets worse in secondary, so best to conserve your energies for the long road ahead!!).

AllOut I found it got easier in Secondary!

@HennyPennyHorror I hope so.

Emerald there are more kids to choose from in secondary and I notice they hang out in larger groups....rather than twos and threes. Much simpler!

Right, @EmeraldShamrock - 'lively and fun' beats 'sulky and exclusive' any day of the week.

And as per the OP, 'jess has never really had a close friend before she joined in dd and sarahs friendship group', so your assumption that she is 'popular' and the 'rule-maker' is pure projection. All we know is that she is fun.

Sarah is her own worst enemy in all of this. Understandable, as she is only 9, but nonetheless...