to wonder if dd is turning into a mean girl??

[SevenOhFour]

dd9 has been best friends with 'Sarah' since they were 5 or 6. there has only been the two of them playing together at playtimes and they see each other out of school a lot. in the past 2 years 'jess' has become good friends with my dd, however Sarah and jess don't get on very well, very different personalities whereas my dd is somewhere in the middle.

Sarah I think feels upset that her friendship is now shared with jess and jess has a tendency to try to leave Sarah out. dd has tried to be the peacemaker for a while but in the past 6 months or so she has become a lot closer to jess.

a few weeks ago Sarah's mum text me to say Sarah had come home very upset because the others had been leaving her out at school, I spoke to dd and told her this was unacceptable and under no circumstances should she leave her out, they've been friends a long time.

today sarahs mum text again saying Sarah was crying and saying my dd and jess have been having private playtimes, telling Sarah they wanted it to be just the two of them for a while.

I asked dd about this and she said that Sarah doesn't speak at all to jess, and barely speaks to my dd when jess is there. she agrees to play a game but when they start playing, Sarah just sits there looking miserable or says its boring. when dd asks her what she wants to play, Sarah says she doesn't know or isn't bothered.

I don't know what to do. on the one hand I do not want dd being the mean girl and leaving her friend out, but on the other it seems she has been the peace maker between the two for so long and Sarah is only ever cheerful when its just her and dd. whenever jess is there she moans, is miserable and complains about everything.

my dd is no angel I am not naïve, but it feels like the friendship has grown apart and where dd is closer to jess, sarah doesn't have that with anyone else.

aibu to say she has to suck it up and include sarah even if shes being miserable all the time? its so horrible to be left out, I just don't know what to advise.

what ive suggested so far is that they ask everyone what they want to play, then play, and if sarah is grumpy just get on with playing and if she wants to join in she can. no need to say 'we want to play on our own'

wwyd?

This is so sad.

My dd was Sarah! She was heartbroken when her longstanding best friend decided that she was best friends with someone else when they were in year 3 at school! Especially as the two new friends cemented their friendship by whispering and being mean about dd and they did leave her out! She spent the rest of primary school being the bystander or tag-along as there wasn't anyone else that she really gelled with- you can't always just find a new best friend that easily when there is only 12 girls in the class.

She has fabulous friends now though at secondary school! And by all accounts the other two girls hate each other now!

I don't think dd really even wants to be good friends with sarah anymore, shes fed up of the sulking, but (even though I know theres no nice way to say it) she says she tells sarah that her and jess want a playtime of their own sometimes. I have told her that its a mean thing to do but actually I don't know what the correct thing is
Jezz now I really feel bad for Sarah. Your DD doesn't like her anymore because Jess is probably cooler.
That is fine, what goes around comes around.
Shit even DD's ex and her new bestie weren't that mean to DD. No wonder the DM asked.
Tell Sarah the friendship is over.

I think you and Sarah's mum have done all you can reasonably do, OP. Your DD has a right to be friends with whoever she wants (though it's always more awkward when mums are friends as well). She doesn't have a right to be unkind about it. But there's no way of knowing whether she is or isn't being unkind. She's only nine, so she's probably a funny mixture of all sorts of things.

My DC are older now, but I remember all kinds of friendship hoo-has when DD was that age. Friendships are also very fluid, and a BFF one week is a worst enemy the next. I think all you can do is remind your DD to be as kind as she can be, and let her get on with it.

Agree with PP who say Sarah's mum needs to encourage Sarah to widen her circle, but S's mum needs to come to this conclusion for herself.

OK, so the OP's situation is different from your DD's then. Fresta.

I agree that telling Sarah they want to play without her is a bit mean. It must hurt horribly to be Sarah in that situation. We were told in primary to let anyone play as long as they played nicely, and to keep one on one time for weekends at home etc.
Is there another girl or two who might like to join their trio ? A bigger group tends to work better. I found three a tricky group, when I was little and when my dds were smaller. Two, or four and above works better. I have told my daughters not to ever leave someone out, and so they have had time one on one out of school. One dd (12) is now part of a group of four most of the time at school , and has one particular friend round at other times. My elder is 14 and part of a bigger group who tend to do things as a gang.
Tight little twosomes aren’t ideal really, they don’t always allow for shifts and changes, and if one child is ill , or moves away, then the other can be very lonely.

Could you have Sarah round after school sometimes ? Could you organise something with a couple of other girls plus the trio ?

It's up to Sarah to join in here. She's welcome to
How do you know this?
How welcoming do you think two girls who think you're sulky and mean are.
You're only getting one third of the story.

I have just read the posts that appeared as I typed, and I also wonder if Jess has edged Sarah out.

Sarah is being moody and sulky because she is upset, yes.

But she is upset because she wants the DD all to herself. She wants the DD to exclude Jess.

The OP's DD is not obliged to kow tow to this.

All she can do is include Sarah, but if Sarah insists on behaving in a way that suggests she wants the DD all to herself - and excludes Jess - she isn't going to do herself any favours.

How do you know this?

Because the OP says her DD asks her to join in - even asks her want she wants to play. She says she doesn't know, or isn't bothered, with a face on.

What do you suggest? That the OP's DD exclude Jess, and only play with Sarah as a twosome...?

When Sarah is being moody I don't think there's anything wrong with dd saying, "what's wrong, you said you wanted to play but you're not joining in?"
Then it's been pointed out to Sarah that she wasn't left out and it's down to her that she's not joining in.

Does your DD play with others as well as Jess?

If she’s doesn’t, then she isn’t ‘widening her social circle’, she’s just dropped one friend for the newer model. But when the new friend isn’t available she’s happy to make do with the old.

Like other PP, I would be concerned about what will happen if/when she and Jess have a falling out or Jess is away. She may then try and play with others only to find herself excluded. Especially if Sarah has made other friends in the meantime and told them all how your DD and Jess have excluded her.

I know on my DD's situation she was definitely edged out by the new girl, funnily enough I told DD to include her as she was new in the sschool.
Thankfully it didn't get to the point of meanness, DD was dignified and gave in leaving the two.
She has HFA it was easier for her to leave her friend than be made feel like a spare part.

You have to leave them to sort this out OP.

My dneice is now 14 but when she was in primary school she was in a situation like this.

She had “known” her best friend from birth as the mum’s were best friends and so were the dads. They went to nursery together and then primary, also went on holidays and treated eachother like family, until the mums had a huge falling out and never spoke again.

She was about 9 at the time and was heartbroken because she only really had that friend but the other girl had other friends and wasn’t as affected. My niece had isolated herself from other girls over the years and had a pretty miserable last few years of primary.

The girls were always going to go to the same school but after the fall out they went to different ones. I always used to worry about her because of the intensity of the friendship and sadly it didn’t work out.

The other girl is still quite social and has lots of friends and neice doesn’t.
I know the other family well.

I have a year 4 dd who has had the same best friend since reception but I’ve always encouraged her to not rely on one person.

I’ve noticed since she started year 4 that lots of friendship groups are changing with the girls and dd is playing more in a larger group which I think is better.

In your situation op I would definitely speak to the teacher. You can’t do any more than what you’ve done. It’s so unhealthy for the other girl to want your dd all to herself and needs to branch out a bit.
You sound like a lovely mum

from what dd tells me, when she is being moody, dd and jess spend a lot of time asking sarah what the matter is and trying to get her to come round, so they don't actually end up playing, which I think is where the wanting to play on there own has come from. ive tried to explain that it doesn't have to be all or nothing. they can encourage her to join in, but if she doesn't want to then dd shouldn't feel she has to stay with sarah figuring out whats wrong

What do you suggest? That the OP's DD exclude Jess, and only play with Sarah as a twosome...?
No I suggest they tell Sarah they will see her around but wont play as a group, they've moved on. In DC language.
OP let Sarah's DM know you suspect the friendship has run its course there'll be no arguing or meaness but it is over.

OooEr is it? How? Having 'private playtimes' is a way of excluding Sarah and being mean. I've seen lots of situations like this over the years from working in schools, and invariably when a third person comes between two best friends they are horrible to the other girl. It often takes the form of having 'private conversations', letting them play but with 'conditions' attached- things like "you can play in five minutes", or "you can play but you have to be ....something you don't want to be" etc. Often it's subtle things in class like not being her partner in paired work, passing books out to the new best friend first, talking loudly about their plans for weekend when she's not invited and so on. No parent ever imagines their child is mean- they usually believe the left-out child must deserve it because they are annoying or should get over it.

The upside of my DD's situation is she was always the mixer of the two so I know she'll get on with it.

yes my dd does play in a wider group too. there are 3 other girls who usually play together but sometimes join up with dd, sarah and jess. dd will sometimes play with them, sarah will go along with dd but doesn't really play with the other 3, mainly just goes along with what dd is doing.

Your daughter is stuck between a rock and hard place. She wants to play with both but knows if she let's Sarah join in she will ruin it, so she's just saying no but not explaining why. I would recommend getting the mum to talk to her daughter about people having more than one friend and it not meaning they like you any less, but also a gentle reminder that she can't always moan if she doesn't get her way, if she makes an effort to join in people would want to play with her more. It's a common problem but just one that Sarah needs to grow out of.

All she can do is include Sarah, but if Sarah insists on behaving in a way that suggests she wants the DD all to herself - and excludes Jess - she isn't going to do herself any favours.

My dd would be the 'Sarah' in this scenario. She wouldn't be being moody/sulky, she would be being quiet because she finds it very hard to challenge people or join in without being actively invited, especially with girls who she might feel a bit intimidated by ie a 'Jess' type character. If explicitly told she was being excluded she would completely withdraw into herself and be very upset. I agree this could come over as being 'miserable' and not doing herself any favours, but she probably is feeling very miserable ie very sad, and finds situations like this really difficult.

When my child was having an awful time I wish the other parents had been more like you. It's really hard to think your child might be making some poor choices at the moment but lots of kids do. Remember that kind kids make bad choices sometimes - it's normal. I'm sure that between you and her you will find a way forward that causes the least possible hurt to the other child. I'm sure that, with your support, your dd will learn how to handle these situations better too.

I suspect that your daughter is being influenced by Jess. You say in your OP that Jess has a tendency to leave Sarah out. My daughter is older now so we've been through the primary years and it's quite common for girls to say that they "just want to play by themselves for a bit" when they just want an exclusive friendship.

It sounds to me like Jess has decided that she wants to be best friends (exclusively) with your daughter and is actively trying to push Sarah out to achieve that. Your daughter is flattered by the attention from Jess who I would hazard a guess is quite cool and popular. The friendship with Jess is new and exciting for her so she's going along with it and justifying it to herself that Sarah is moody all the time. Sarah is most likely being moody because she's not stupid and she knows she is being pushed out and is upset about it.

I would warn your daughter that friends like Jess are usually not very loyal.

OP I may be projecting. In your pp's I see it is always Sarah ruining the fun? They did have 3 other friends before Jess but Sarag didn't want to play with them.
If Sarah arrived home sobbing there is more to this, she probably held in those tears all day.
They are DC yes but this all sounds very one sided from your POV.
If Sarah is such a moody sulky girl how did they remain BFF's for so long.