Or are compulsory vaccines the best political policy the Tories have ever come up with?

[HollyGoLoudly1]

In the news today, Tory health secretary is investigating compulsory vaccinations for school children.

Before I don my hard hat, for background I have a close family member who is immunocompromised. He has had multiple hospital admissions over the years for simple viruses and other illnesses that most of us wouldn't even need to stay off work for. If he catches something like measles it could be fatal.

To be honest, even disregarding this family member, I am very, very pro-vaccine and would support this policy no matter what. Even if it is from the Tories (who I definitely do not support).

puts on hard hat

Yes, focus on the bit you can be patronising about and ignore the bit about how that happens a lot and is a huge part of the issue (despite you making out it only happens where I live).

I didn't say that it only happens where you live. I said that you can't extrapolate a couple of situations you have observed to decide that parents are receiving different information to teenagers.

Government has the right to compel parents to put substances into their children’s bodies that they actively believe are harmful
So you want the government to cater to the ignorance of the people who believe that.

I didn't say that it only happens where you live. I said that you can't extrapolate a couple of situations you have observed to decide that parents are receiving different information to teenagers.

The whole manner is different. The staff tone to questions, the posters, the leaflets - everything. Unless you are suggesting that that is unique to here then it's not at far fetched to extrapolate that at least in some areas the tone is very different.

And given that uptake is higher in teenagers than expected then I don't see why you've decided to pick on my posts suggesting that the tone it's being dealt with be carried over to parents because it's working. Whereas the current tones parents are treated with are not working.

So you want the government to cater to the ignorance of the people who believe that.

I want Government to cater to the rights of the people who believe that. One day they might be right.

There should be negative consequences for choosing not to vaccinate if there isn't a medical reason (e.g. immune system issues) but that should not be denying the children places in school. Nor should it be illegal to make that choice. However, decisions have consequences and the anti-vax movement causes an unnecessary health burden on the rest of us.

Therefore any family where the children aren't certified as vaccinated (or granted medical exemption) within 12 months of the scheduled time for each vaccine, both parents will get their tax code adjusted to pay a higher rate of tax than the rest of us. If the children reach the age of being allowed to make their own decisions about vaccines (is that 15?) without the parents changing their mind, then that code change is permanent for the rest of their lives. If they relent and get the vaccines done late then the tax code is adjusted back towards normal, with a sliding scale according to how late. The additional tax revenue brought in is earmarked for education about the benefits of vaccines, and additional funding for the NHS for dealing with the outbreaks of preventable diseases.

Anti-vaxxers in families which don't pay any tax would have an equivalent reduction in benefits (e.g. maybe only allowed housing benefit enough for a house which is one room smaller than they might otherwise have) - as pointed out upthread it would be wrong to introduce such a thing only for the families on benefits as that would be poor-bashing but the prime financial effects of the combined policy would be for the rich rather than the poor. Obviously the effects in tax code would also be present if they started being able to earn after their unvaccinated children leave home.

What needs to happen is a proper education programme that doesn't just dismiss people's fear as stupid, but answers their fears with proper information.

As soon as a HV or other health professional says "vaccines don't harm anyone" it puts anyone nervous on the back foot because they occasionally do. So when you get people doubting that means they google for the information and they get bombarded with false statistics. As soon as someone says "don't be silly" or "stop being stupid" they stop engaging because they don't want to be patronised or belittled.

Treat people like adults, don't patronise them, tell them that one in Xmillion children have a reaction. Remind them of how many children died from measles. Arm them with actual facts in a proper way. It works - you can see that when proper info comes out during an outbreak and people rush for vaccination.

When it's a real threat to them they'll go for vaccination, the problem at the moment is that they don't think of these conditions as a problem to them because they aren't of the generation that knew Mary who lost her 7 kids to Measles.

Medical choice must be freely exercised and advice given by healthcare professionals must be impartial.

HCP CANNOT be impartial.They are trained to give health care and while you have a right to be fully informed informed and have the right to refuse a HCP is going to tell you what, in their professional opinion, is the best course of treatment.

Somethings should not be impartial, sometimes there should be no middle ground. We do not invite paedophiles into new build schools to advise on making space to abuse.

I know it's a long time ago and not in the UK but what would you have done about 'Typhoid Mary'?

If you don't know the story she 'shed' typhoid but was not ill herself. She worked as a cook and infected several families with typhoid and is believed to be responsible for at least 3 deaths possibly as many as 50.

She was isolated and then released on the condition that she did not work as a cook. Initially she did this but as cooking paid more than other work she went back to cooking.

The second time she was isolated she had to remain so for the rest of her life. She either couldn't understand or couldn't accept that she was the source of the outbreaks.

I think that would be worse than a blanket rule, because linking to state school and benefits basically makes it only compulsory to poor people.

I said school, not state school. I would not make an exemption for private schools.

Yes that does mean the rich can pay for tutors or send their child abroad but that also limits the child's time in the general population.

No one is going to vote for the Tories because of this (I hope). They won’t actually be able to implement anything, it’s just posturing to make it look like they are taking it seriously that we’ve lost our measles free status (whilst they continue to not fund the NHS properly to do its job). There will always be religious exemption from any policy (they’ve already said this will be the case) so anyone who feels strongly against vaccination just has to say they want a religious exemption. Education is the only way, but unfortunately that might mean a bit of extra funding somewhere.

There also should be, imo, an acceptance that it's understandable people have fear. Take anyone who knows my family - my DD will live with narcolepsy for the rest of her life because of the swine flu vaccine.

Anyone who knows her and who is nervous about vaccinating their child, especially as we come up to flu jab season, doesn't deserve to be belitted or called stupid, and certainly doesn't deserve to be called neglectful. They deserve understanding and proper information.

Sadly I think part of the problem is that decent HVs and GPs don't actually have the time to talk to people at length about their fears and about statistics.

sashh

I can’t speak for some rumour-mill historical figure. No idea. What I know is that HCPs must be impartial of Government and their role must be to give factual ADVICE, not to coerce patients on behalf of the State. First, do no harm.

m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Cc_51Qqkmy4

What I know is that HCPs must be impartial of Government and their role must be to give factual ADVICE, not to coerce patients on behalf of the State. First, do no harm.

The advice on vaccines comes from regulatory health bodies rather than the government. They will be impartial of Government advice but any healthcare professional would be negligent and opening themselves up to lawsuits if they don't follow advice from Public Health England etc and things go wrong.

@sash

HCPs have to be impartial in their medical advice. That doesn't mean they can't recommend a course of treatment or surgery, but they have to offer evidence based information and allow informed choice. Part of informed choice is being free of coercion.

my DD will live with narcolepsy for the rest of her life because of the swine flu vaccine.
There was a huge rise of narcolepsy in countries that didnt give the swine flu vaccine at the same time ie Cina and i think iceland and it was following rhe flu season.
There was a huge rise in narcolepsy after the first world way as well following the flu pandemic.

‘I want Government to cater to the rights of the people who believe that. One day they might be right.’

It’s not today though. If they believe that then they are at best misinformed and their children pay the price. I don’t see why the government should take a risk on public health for those who don’t believe in science.

I absolutely support a very hard line on vaccinations. But in all good conscience cannot support a forced vaccination programme. It just removes parental agency and the concept bodily autonomy which could have dangerous ramifications for the future.

What I do strongly support, is a negative reinforcement policy, so no access to childcare/schools etc... for unvaccinated children increased NI to cover potential health costs or reduced child support maybe for the non vaccinators? Quite radical I know, but there has to be a very radical line, that stops short of implementing state controlled medicalisation.

The risk to the rest of society, of unvaccinated children moving around in the germ soup that is the school/early years education setting etc... is just not acceptable.

So instead of educating people as to the reasons why it is sensible to vaccinate, we instead choose to deny them an education altogether? Yep, totally logical outcome there....

*HCPs have to be impartial in their medical advice. That doesn't mean they can't recommend a course of treatment or surgery, but they have to offer evidence based information and allow informed choice"

What do you mean by "coercion" though? They can't force people to have the vaccinations but that doesn't mean that the can't strongly recommend vaccination.

HCPs have to be impartial in their medical advice. That doesn't mean they can't recommend a course of treatment or surgery, but they have to offer evidence based information and allow informed choice

What do you mean by "coercion" though? They can't force people to have the vaccinations but that doesn't mean that the can't strongly recommend vaccination.

Sorry, slightly waffly post there, writing on my phone whilst doing other things! Hopefully my post is otherwise clear.

woodchuck99

Coercion: laws that say you have to accept a particular treatment or X unpleasant implication.

So instead of educating people as to the reasons why it is sensible to vaccinate, we instead choose to deny them an education altogether? Yep, totally logical outcome there....

They have been trying to educate people ever since the Andrew Wakefield research was discredited though and it doesn't seem to be working thanks to the internet. I think that the time to look at policies introduced by countries that are much more successful.

“So instead of educating people as to the reasons why it is sensible to vaccinate, we instead choose to deny them an education altogether? Yep, totally logical outcome there....”

Yes! There have to be consequences, people should not have to die due to ignorance of others. If you don’t want to vaccinate your child, then prepare to home educate them. I make no apologies for placing the health of the general public, above that of ignorance.

The reason the viruses (measles etc) are so prevalent nowadays IS down to anti vaxxers not vaccinating so that vaccination levels drop to a point where herd immunity can’t be relied on. Any vaxxers can’t get to adopt their stance and then get to claim they are blame free for the rise of these viruses.

Sorry meant to @ @seaweedandmarchingbands